#196 The Problem With Wealth Taxes with Steven Hail (part 1)

The MMT Podcast with Patricia Pino & Christian Reilly

Part 1: Patricia and Christian talk with economist, author, and founder of Modern Money Lab Professor Steven Hail about the well-intentioned but counter-productive call for a wealth tax to “fund” vital support for vulnerable people.

Full conversation here: https://www.patreon.com/posts/126627127

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LIVE EVENTS!

Modern Money Lab UK weekend seminars in London featuring Dr Steven Hail:

• June 21st & 22nd (White City) - Rethinking Capitalism
• June 28th & 29th (Finsbury Park) - Money, Government and the Public Interest - Beyond The Deficit Myth

Details and tickets: https://modernmoneylab.org.uk/events/

JOIN PATRICIA’S MMT ACTIVIST NETWORK (MMT UK): https://actionnetwork.org/forms/activist-registration-form

MMT: THE MOVIE!

• “Finding The Money”, a documentary by Maren Poitras featuring Stephanie Kelton is now available worldwide to rent or buy: https://findingthemoney.vhx.tv/products/finding-the-money
• Updates on worldwide screenings of “Finding The Money” can be found here: https://findingmoneyfilm.com/where-to-watch/
• To arrange a screening of “Finding The Money”, apply here: https://findingmoneyfilm.com/host-a-screening/

STUDY THE ECONOMICS OF SUSTAINABILITY!

• Details of Modern Money Lab’s online graduate, postgraduate and standalone courses in economics are here: https://modernmoneylab.org.au/

Relevant to this episode:

• Episode 30 - Steven Hail: Understanding Government Bonds (Part 1) :https://www.patreon.com/posts/29621245
• Episode 31 - Steven Hail: Understanding Government Bonds (Part 2): https://www.patreon.com/posts/29829500
• “Federal Debt and Modern Money” by Steven Hail & David Joy: https://www.global-isp.org/wp-content/uploads/PN-121.pdf
• "There is no need to issue public debt” by Bill Mitchell: https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=31715
• “How to Fight Back Against the False Idea that the Government is at the Mercy of Financial Markets” by Sheridan Kates: https://thealternative.org.uk/dailyalternative/2025/3/10/scotonomics-monetary-autonomy
• Lecture: “The CFA Franc and Monetary Sovereignty in Africa”, by Dr Ndongo Samba Sylla: https://youtu.be/W3P14tpE70U?si=0Dv7dukz_bnQbIbN
• “Who Is Ron Vara? The Truth Behind Peter Navarro's Fake Expert” by Brendon Beebe: https://brendonbeebe.substack.com/p/who-is-ron-vara-the-truth-behind
• For more on the endogenous money view (the non-fringe, very mainstream view that bank loans create deposits, not the other way around), listen to episode 126 - Dirk Ehnts: How Banks Create Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/62603318 and episode 43 - Sam Levey: Understanding Endogenous Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/35073683
• For more on the (Liz) Trussageddon, listen to Episode 147 - Dirk Ehnts: Do Markets Control Our Politics?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-147-dirk-72906421

For an intro to MMT:

• Our first three episodes: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41742417
• Episode 126 - Dirk Ehnts: How Banks Create Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/62603318

Quick MMT reads:

• Warren’s Mosler’s MMT white paper: http://moslereconomics.com/mmt-white-paper/
• Steven Hail’s quick MMT explainer: https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-modern-monetary-theory-72095
• Quick explanation of government debt and deficit: “Some Numbers Are Big. Let Me Help You Get Over It”: https://christreilly.com/2020/02/17/some-numbers-are-big-let-me-help-you-get-over-it/

For a short, non-technical, free ebook explaining MMT, download Warren Mosler’s “7 Deadly Innocent Frauds Of Economic Policy” here: http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf

Episodes on monetary operations:

• Episode 20 - Warren Mosler: The MMT Money Story (part 1): https://www.patreon.com/posts/28004824
• Episode 126 - Dirk Ehnts: How Banks Create Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/62603318
• Episode 13 - Steven Hail: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Banking, But Were Afraid To Ask: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41790887
• Episode 43 - Sam Levey: Understanding Endogenous Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/35073683
• Episode 84 - Andrew Berkeley, Richard Tye & Neil Wilson: An Accounting Model Of The UK Exchequer (Part 1): https://www.patreon.com/posts/46352183
• Episode 86 - Andrew Berkeley, Richard Tye & Neil Wilson: An Accounting Model Of The UK Exchequer (Part 2): https://www.patreon.com/posts/46865929

For more on Quantitative Easing:

• Episode 59 - Warren Mosler: What Do Central Banks Do?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/39070023
• Episode 143 - Paul Sheard: What Is Quantitative Easing?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/71589989?pr=true

Episodes on inflation:

• Episode 7: Steven Hail: Inflation, Price Shocks and Other Misunderstandings: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41780508
• Episode 65 - Phil Armstrong: Understanding Inflation: https://www.patreon.com/posts/40672678
• Episode 104 - John T Harvey: Inflation, Stagflation & Healing The Nation: https://www.patreon.com/posts/52207835
• Episode 123 - Warren Mosler: Understanding The Price Level And Inflation: https://www.patreon.com/posts/59856379
• Episode 128 - L. Randall Wray & Yeva Nersisyan: What’s Causing Accelerating Inflation? Pandemic Or Policy Response?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/63776558

Our Job Guarantee episodes:

• Episode 4 - Fadhel Kaboub: What is the Job Guarantee?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41742701
• Episode 47 - Pavlina Tcherneva: Building Resilience - The Case For A Job Guarantee: https://www.patreon.com/posts/36034543
• Episode 148 - Pavlina Tcherneva: Why The Job Guarantee Is Core To Modern Monetary Theory: https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-148-why-73211346
• Quick read: Pavlina Tcherneva’s Job Guarantee FAQ page: https://pavlina-tcherneva.net/job-guarantee-faq/

More on government bonds (and “vigilantes”):

• Episode 30 - Steven Hail: Understanding Government Bonds (Part 1):https://www.patreon.com/posts/29621245
• Episode 31 - Steven Hail: Understanding Government Bonds (Part 2): https://www.patreon.com/posts/29829500
• Episode 143 - Paul Sheard: What Is Quantitative Easing?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/71589989?pr=true
• Episode 147 - Dirk Ehnts: Do Markets Control Our Politics?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-147-dirk-72906421
• Episode 144 - Warren Mosler: The Natural Rate Of Interest Is Zero: https://www.patreon.com/posts/71966513
• Episode 145 - John T Harvey: What Determines Currency Prices?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/72283811?pr=true

More on bank runs banking regulation:

• Episode 162 - Warren Mosler: Anatomy Of A Bank Run: https://www.patreon.com/posts/80157783?pr=true
• Episode 163 - L. Randall Wray: Breaking Banks - The Fed’s Magical Monetarist Thinking Strikes Again: https://www.patreon.com/posts/80479169?pr=true
• Episode 165 - Robert Hockett: Sparking An Industrial Renewal By Building Banks Better: https://www.patreon.com/posts/81084983?pr=true
• MMT founder Warren Mosler’s Proposals for the Treasury, the Federal Reserve, the FDIC, and the Banking System: https://neweconomicperspectives.org/2010/02/warren-moslers-proposals-for-treasury.html

MMT Events And Courses:

• More information about Professor Bill Mitchell’s MMTed project (free public online courses in MMT) here: http://www.mmted.org/
• Details of Modern Money Lab’s online graduate and postgraduate courses in MMT are here: https://modernmoneylab.org.au/

Order the Gower Initiative’s “Modern Monetary Theory - Key Insights, Leading Thinkers”: https://www.e-elgar.com/shop/gbp/modern-monetary-theory-9781802208085.html

MMT Academic Resources compiled by The Gower Initiative for Modern Money Studies: https://www.zotero.org/groups/2251544/mmt_academic_resources_-_compiled_by_the_gower_initiative_for_modern_money_studies

MMT scholarship compiled by New Economic Perspectives: http://neweconomicperspectives.org/mmt-scholarship

A list of MMT-informed campaigns and organisations worldwide: https://www.patreon.com/posts/47900757

We are working towards full transcripts, but in the meantime, closed captions for all episodes are available on our YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEp_nGVTuMfBun2wiG-c0Ew/videos