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Content provided by Davy Fung + PJ Onori. All podcast content including episodes, graphics, and podcast descriptions are uploaded and provided directly by Davy Fung + PJ Onori or their podcast platform partner. If you believe someone is using your copyrighted work without your permission, you can follow the process outlined here https://ppacc.player.fm/legal.
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Before The Chorus


1 LIVE: Before the Chorus & Open Folk Present: In These Lines feat. Gaby Moreno, Lily Kershaw & James Spaite 33:58
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On June 25th 2025, in collaboration with Open Folk, we presented our first ever live interview event in Los Angeles. As Open Folk put it: "In These Lines is a live event where three artists each bring one song — not just to perform, but to explore. They sit down with Sofia Loporcaro, host of Before The Chorus, to talk about where the song came from, what it meant to write it, and what it still holds. Then they play it. Just the song, and the truth behind it." Find Open Folk on Instagram: @openfolkla Find Gaby on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/0K9pSmFx0kWESA9jqx8aCW?si=Wz4RUP88Qlm_RKs7QTLvWQ On Apple Music: https://music.apple.com/us/artist/gaby-moreno/472697737 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gaby_moreno/ Find Lily on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/0p0ksmwMDQlAM24TWKu4Ua?si=Bmdg-uIUTHu-zRUc_dqL3g On Apple Music: https://music.apple.com/us/artist/lily-kershaw/526884610 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lilykershaw/ Find James on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/3u50TPoLvMBXNT1KrLa3iT?si=OoLoq7ZTRZyUiytQcz0FsQ On Apple Music: https://music.apple.com/us/artist/james-spaite/905076868 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamesspaite/ Subscribe: https://beforethechorus.bio.to/listen Sign up for our newsletter: https://www.beforethechorus.com/ Follow on Instagram: @beforethechoruspodcast & @soundslikesofia About the podcast: Welcome to Before the Chorus , where we go beyond the sounds of our favourite songs to hear the stories of the artists who wrote them. Before a song is released, a record is produced, or a chorus is written, the musicians that write them think. A lot. They live. A lot. And they feel. A LOT. Hosted by award-winning interviewer Sofia Loporcaro, Before the Chorus explores the genuine human experiences behind the music. Sofia’s deep knowledge of music and personal journey with mental health help her connect with artists on a meaningful level. This is a space where fans connect with artists, and listeners from all walks of life feel seen through the stories that shape the music we love. About the host: Sofia Loporcaro is an award-winning interviewer and radio host who’s spent over 8 years helping musicians share their stories. She’s hosted shows for Amazing Radio, and Transmission Roundhouse. Now on Before the Chorus, she’s had the chance to host guests like Glass Animals, Feist, Madison Cunningham, Mick Jenkins, & Ru Paul's Drag Race winner Shea Couleé. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices…
Ep 68: IC Performance
Manage episode 454101832 series 3532550
Content provided by Davy Fung + PJ Onori. All podcast content including episodes, graphics, and podcast descriptions are uploaded and provided directly by Davy Fung + PJ Onori or their podcast platform partner. If you believe someone is using your copyrighted work without your permission, you can follow the process outlined here https://ppacc.player.fm/legal.
Topical for the time of year, Davy gets PJ to spill some beans on how to best set up designers to best prove the value of their day-to-day work in design systems.
84 episodes
Manage episode 454101832 series 3532550
Content provided by Davy Fung + PJ Onori. All podcast content including episodes, graphics, and podcast descriptions are uploaded and provided directly by Davy Fung + PJ Onori or their podcast platform partner. If you believe someone is using your copyrighted work without your permission, you can follow the process outlined here https://ppacc.player.fm/legal.
Topical for the time of year, Davy gets PJ to spill some beans on how to best set up designers to best prove the value of their day-to-day work in design systems.
84 episodes
All episodes
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Design System Office Hours

Davy talks about what he's seen with the popularity around (local) product systems and how you can may want to adoption via providing just some design system team support. PJ ends the convo with the lighter weight approach of supporting templates in code and design.
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Another takeaway from our cross-functional discussions, how do design system team members handle disagreements with consumers, or even our own teammates?
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Davy and PJ talk dive into designers building helpers and plugins to support more specialized design system maintainer workflows, and the beauty of unblocking ourselves.
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Davy and PJ talk about how to plan to best support inbound product design work, in addition to the differences between product-led work vs design system team-led initiatives.
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Because it was PJ's first Config, we decided to record a live, IRL episode, recap our first thoughts about the new product releases and a thread that we started about who Figma is designing for, dating back from last year's event.
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We're back with an episode an episode about component and design system flexibility. How opinionated should your design system be, vs a large set of reusable pieces that can be put in any which way together. Davy and PJ weigh in on both methods and where you may want to dive into a framework that allows you to build starting from anywhere.…
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1 Ep 76: Guy Segal and Design System Management and Ops 49:07
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Our friend Guy Segal, Director of Design Systems at Thomson Reuters comes and talks with us about consistency in operations and how to scale out systems thinking.
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We learn about PJ's start in design systems, dating back to 2011, and Davy's first introduction to it in 2015. They discuss while tech has evolved, aspects such as theming still remain a struggle to figure out. Also discussed is how we evolved our roles, and what might be suitable traits and tactics used by design system people in 2025.…
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1 Ep 74: Maintaining Large Component Libraries 30:30
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Davy and PJ talk about design and code parity, how we keep our artifacts aligned with live product, and other nuances to maintaining large scale component libraries.
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Davy and PJ talk about the challenges of updating legacy components from yesteryear, and what it takes to migrate legacy code to new design system components. When is the suitable time to do this work?
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Davy and PJ talk about the concepts presented in Brad Frost's 2013 book, Atomic Design, and how a simpler format in present day with components, patterns, and screens may be common representation for design teams.
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1 Ep 71: Reviewing Work from Product Designers 36:39
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In our second recent episode about reviewing work, Davy and PJ talk about how we review output from product designers on our teams and the need to stay plugged in so we can help designers earlier in the process.
While the podcast is one form of communication, on our teams we heavily utilize async written communication methods to best spread the good work of design systems. We talk about the different methods we communicate to stakeholders and consumers of our design system artifacts, specifically, documentation.…
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Davy and PJ dive into the various ways we've utilized crits on our teams to both do design ops related work, but also reviewing code, in addition to design.
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Topical for the time of year, Davy gets PJ to spill some beans on how to best set up designers to best prove the value of their day-to-day work in design systems.
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While we touched on teams of one, which is quite common in our community, how do we function in medium size teams of 3+ designers, and how can we effectively, and intentionally scale.
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In our second episode dedicated to accessibility in design systems, Davy and PJ talk about the surface level explorations of color contrast, then learning more about how to better design for screen readers, for a better web experience.
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1 Ep 65: DS POV from Engineering w/ Matt Petitt 44:25
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We start our series with learning about how design systems interact and help our other team members from different disciplines. We start with Matt Petitt, Engineering Manager at Dayforce.
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Davy and PJ talk in depth about the perils of chasing efficiency, and how we approach measuring effort and time-saved. And does this tie into velocity at all?
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In the tough market of design team contractions, Davy and PJ talk about how to maintain focus and stability as a horizontal design practice.
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On this episode, PJ talks about his time using Figma's REST API and how with so much data collected, we just need it to do a little more for us.
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1 Ep 61: Where Design Systems Sit, w/ Nico from Zeplin 48:52
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These have become some of our favorites, and tend to cover more ground than a typical ep. Nico, community manager for Zeplin joins as a co-host for this special ep.
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Happy episode 60! Davy and PJ talk about a popular design system topic when we start out, Contributions and Federated Help. While this all sounds good, what are some of the pitfalls of relying too heavily on contributions and help from external design resources.
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Is system adoption the only measure of success? Davy and PJ talk about adoption metrics we tend to tie ourselves to, and how it may not always paint the most complete picture.
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Or aptly named, Color Complexity in Design by our GPT pal, Davy and PJ discuss the use or rather overuse of color in product design. When thinking about color in design systems, once again, less is most appropriate.
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Fresh off 2 days of Config in-person conference, Davy talks with PJ about his time IRL, and talk about what they thought about feature releases, and what we might have expected.
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Pre-Config episode, Davy and PJ follow up our last "Just Say No" episode with an ep about design system fatigue. As a service team, how do we maintain the good graces, and continue to help designers produce the best work. It all starts and ends with a design culture that promotes early communication with the your design system frens.…
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When you're on a team of one, or fully staffed team with design and engineers, you'll soon have to shift some of your yes responses, to no. Davy and PJ talk how this at times trickles in through contributions, something that was an exciting concept in early days, but can get harder to manage as demand scales.…
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Davy and PJ go over their favorite Davy and PJisms, their versions of design principles that they have been following them around through several design roles over the years.
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We had such good traction on one of our first episodes, we decided to bring on another friend of the program, Donnie D'Amato to talk about design technologists, where they should sit in the org, and how we can use them as designers to be our best helping hand.
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It's a design system emergency! Our updates are no longer behind a somewhat blocking dialog in Figma. Davy and PJ had to jump on to talk about how this may help or not receive and adopt new system changes.
Davy and PJ talk about the importance of standing up rituals, much like our product design partners, including, how might design system teams handle crits and office hours. How might a designer working at a Facebook leverage a feed, or a internal Facebook group, to share updates.
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We made it to our 2 year birthday and 50 episodes! We reflect in Davy's shift into back into IC at Meta, and PJ's shift from IC to Manager most recently at Pinterest, and how the roles differed for us in design systems.
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Davy and PJ talk about how to get into your first DS job, the answer being things to know OTHER than building components. On the second half of the pod, we flip to how to get into DS as a discipline as a product designer.
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As we approach 2 years, and 50 episodes, we recap this year and dive back into how AI changed some of our thinking this year, as well as what we would like to see out of the design systems practice in 2024. Episode Transcripts
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1 Ep 47: Evaluating Outside Design Perspectives 29:50
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One theme that has been our mind working in large mega design teams, is how our product design teams handle outside, external POV, vs historical cannon. Davy and PJ discuss this, weaved in with how we like to evaluate potential solutions for our systems. Episode Transcripts
With convos of relying on external services such as design system docs sites, Figma plugins, or analytics, we talk about our experience working in large teams with funding to build our own, vs utilizing third party services that can simply get you up and running immediately. Episode Transcript
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Davy and PJ talk a little more in depth about support and the dangers of being a purely reactive design system team. How do you handle requests, and how to operate the program during times of duress. Episode Transcripts
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Listener question: DS team of one, and how to keep afloat and keep the program going. We touch on what you might want to focus on, and getting help as soon as you can so you can scale. Episode Transcripts
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Design System Office Hours

We are back in your lives with a normal 1:1 with Davy and PJ about design system complexities, and how you might want to consider a system with less tokens, variants, and what it's like for Davy to manage 149 components on web alone. Episode Transcripts
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1 Ep 42: Accessibility x Design Systems w/ Cintia Romero 40:07
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We have a friend of the program, Cintia Romero from Pinterest to talk about her work leading the accessibility design and education programs that has been now consumed by hundreds of designers. You can view the Pinterest docs site at:https://gestalt.pinterest.systems/
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1 Ep 41: @cobradave + @disco_lu Twitter Space 52:47
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Recorded with @disco_lu a few months ago, Davy and Luis go rapid-fire on various design system hiring, component-building philosophies, and training. See below for timestamps. (1:25): How Davy got started in DS (6:00): Package my narrative as DS designer (7:00): How to posture yourself to obtain your ideal position (8:34): How to utilize existing job postings internally mentioning DS to get into your ideal position (11:43): Davy’s way to cope with current layoffs (13:05): Shift to more community in DS in the last few years (14:05): How do we open the door for greater collaboration vs governance (15:34): Merging with another team, how do we navigate (17:04): How do you deal with change and keep working moving along (18:16): How do you operationalize the merging of teams, files, ceremonies (20:44): Where does design ops and product management intersect (21:55): How do we deprioritize the pixels and prioritize planning (26:10): Refactoring to infinity when not tied to a specific timeline (29:05): Clear business objective around brand updates (29:45): Sometimes even with apps like gmail, it takes a while to roll out updates (30:44): Uber components that can do anything, is this the right method for most (32:44): Design and engineering parity (35:54): Separating components to be distinct use cases so you can see what you’re getting. (36:55): Thinking tactically like an engineer (37:40): File Hygiene (38:28): Training and education and how to use your system as intended (40:15): Watching people is the best way to learn (41:22): Regular open office hours for any role (41:51): Telling people what you’re working on and what’s coming (43:12): Writing posts to talk about your work (44:40): Collecting resources and learning together (45:38): Doing a demo and going first to show best practice. Lead the way. (47:23): Working an understanding how a specific component use case, doing a live design session. (48:23): Systemizing training vs having 1:1s. (49:00): Whether you need a design system…
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Happy 40th episode birthday. We talk about moving fast vs designing and building with intentionality, and naturally the convo led morphed into a half episode about ways of partnering with product designers, and how we work on our systems at Meta and Pinterest. Episode Transcripts
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With DS being table stakes on lots of product design teams, and even job postings, we talk about whether you need one, or whether your efforts should be scaled elsewhere. What are you really getting yourself into when you start this journey.. Episode Transcripts
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1 Ep 38: Career Convos for Design Systems People w/ Romina Kavcic 49:12
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This was a special LIVE RECORDING at The Future of Design Systems conference hosted by @IntoDSConf. Friend of the program @rominadesigner takes over as host. We talk about what hard skills are important to have (building components), and the novel idea of interviewing specifically for systems thinking.…
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