Exploring the Wild With Eli Martinez: Diving With Sharks & Embracing the Call of Adventure

Don't Cut Your Own Bangs

In this episode of 'Don't Cut Your Own Bangs,' Danielle Ireland interviews adventurer and SDM Diving owner Eli Martinez. They discuss his unique career leading land and ocean safaris, dispelling myths about predators, and the connection between exploring the wild and self-discovery. Eli shares his journey from aspiring bull rider to renowned wildlife guide and photographer, emphasizing the therapeutic and transformative power of nature. Together, they explore how experiencing the wild fosters understanding, empathy, and personal growth.

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DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW

I greatly appreciate your support and engagement as part of the Don't Cut Your Own Bangs community. Feel free to reach out with questions, comments, or anything you'd like to share. You can connect with me at any of the links below.

Connect with Eli:

• Book an adventure HERE - https://sdmdiving.com/
• Instagram

Connect with Danielle:

• Watch the show on YouTube
• Instagram
• The Treasured Journal
• Wrestling a Walrus

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Guest

00:13 Eli Martinez: The Adventurer's Journey

01:21 Connecting with Nature and Overcoming Fear

02:18 Building a Dream Career

05:59 Diving into the World of Sharks

12:16 The Power of Social Media and Storytelling

17:59 The Importance of Conservation and Ecotourism

21:40 Personal Growth Through Wildlife Experiences

28:40 Connecting with Nature and Self

29:07 The Lion Tracker's Guide to Life

29:38 Struggles with Anxiety and Self-Doubt

31:04 Emotional Awareness and Growth

32:00 Transformative Experiences in the Wild

35:03 Launching Shark Diver Magazine

35:55 Shifting from Magazine to Excursions

40:49 Dispelling the Predator Myth

48:28 Curiosity and Career Pivots

53:30 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Eli Martinez Podcast Interview

[00:00:00] Danielle: Hello. Hello. This is Danielle Ireland and you are listening to Don't Cut Your Own Banks and Today's Guest. this has been a long time coming for me. I am so excited beyond excited to introduce Eli Martinez. Eli is an adventurer.

[00:00:14] He's an explorer, he's an operator and owner of SDM Adventures. It's a group that leads land and ocean safaris. If you have ever seen these wild otherworldly images of people swimming with humpback whales, swimming with orca whales, swimming with crocodiles, swimming with anacondas. There's a good chance that you've stumbled across his images because he is one of the few, right?

[00:00:42] It's a pretty small pool of people who make a living doing what he does, Images, they grab your attention, they hook your imagination. But it being on a screen, it's easy to think, well, that's so far removed from my life. what value is there in that for me? Like that's a cool image. But the internet has lots of cool images.

[00:01:00] There's a couple of important distinctions and what I think makes this episode so special. What we talk about is dispelling the predator myth and my work as a therapist and his work as a safari guide. They don't seem too related, but there was one common thread that came out of this episode that it's gonna stick with me for a long time.

[00:01:21] He's guiding people into the natural world to feel connected to the natural world in a deep and profound way. And when anybody sits with their emotional space. With their feelings. Feelings of discomfort, fear, terror, trauma. That's really hard to do and hard to hold. But when you do and access curiosity, you begin to tap into your true nature.

[00:01:49] Your intuition, and so Eli might be talking about sharks and the deep ocean, and I might be talking about feelings, but there is a common thread in language here that makes this episode already one of my favorites. I can't wait for you to hear his story because not only is the work itself that we spent a lot of time talking about, fascinating.

[00:02:10] He leads people on wildlife safaris in the ocean, on land. I mean, it's just. What a cool, amazing job. But he built that job. There wasn't an application for him to fill out. He built this from the ground up and there were stumbling blocks, missteps and pivots along the way, and he shares those with us.

[00:02:30] So not only can we learn about how could I build a dream that I didn't know was possible, you also have the benefit of. Really getting a sense of what is it like, what is the value, what is the purpose? And I would argue where is the healing in connecting with the natural world, whether that's through a hike or through looking out your window.

[00:02:53] And as he states a couple of times, just watch a sunset. Really watch a sunset. So I'm gonna save that. I'm gonna leave that for you there. Thank you for being here. You're gonna love this episode. Welcome, Eli Martinez.

[00:03:08]

[00:04:18] Danielle: Eli Martinez, thank you so much for being here with Don't cut your own bangs.

[00:04:23] This is not the first time we've met, but this is the first time we've done a podcast together and I am like the little kid in me who wanted to be a marine biologist when she first knew what dolphins were.

[00:04:34] This feels like just she feels so greedy with excitement to talk to someone who has made a living, being an adventure traveler and swimming with animals and interacting with animals all over the world. So I'm very excited to talk to you.

[00:04:47] Eli: Actually, I was a little self-conscious about it because of, because of your background in psychology.

[00:04:52] I'm like, okay, all right. where do I start?

[00:04:55] Danielle: You know what? Yes. your family actually told me to schedule this podcast interview so that we could really get into what makes Eli tick. No, no, no, no, no., This is a celebration what I'm curious about personally, not just professionally working as a therapist, but I love understanding what leads people down, whatever path they end on.

[00:05:16] And probably a lot of that is because I mistakenly thought during my twenties that you went through the school system. You graduate with a degree, you start working in that career, and you follow all of the steps to be a good. Citizen and that was not my path, and it was a lot more twisty and turny and there were a lot of pivots and I can see that now as of value.

[00:05:43] But, in those moments where I thought I knew what I was going to be doing and life took me in a different direction, it. Knocked me down pretty hard I think there were a lot of moments where I felt like I was failing or wasn't doing it right, using air quotes of whatever it is.

[00:05:59] And so someone like you who, are a storyteller, explorer, wildlife photographer, and have spent your life chasing the wild. you lead ocean and land wildlife, safaris. I love that distinction. Ocean and land, wildlife safaris.

[00:06:15] There is not, you can't go to high school and then college and then just start doing what you're doing. There's no Reddit, there's no LinkedIn interview that you can fulfill to make that a career. You had to chisel that together. And so I really wanna understand that more. how you built this dream.

[00:06:36] What seems from afar, like a dream life? And I'm sure it is many days, but I wanna know how you did it.

[00:06:43] Eli: animals have always been like my first love, as a child, I can remember my first toys were animals. my dream as a child was to become a wildlife veterinarian. that was the only way I knew that I could actually physically be around animals that, 'cause I had no idea about wildlife guiding or photography or storytelling

[00:07:05] So veterinarian was the only way I could get close to a zebra or a giraffe. And I said, that's what I want to do. So as a child, that was like that one dream that I had. And of course, life gets in the way and I went to a completely different route. I actually went to school to be a motorcycle mechanic.

[00:07:23] So what?

[00:07:24] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:07:24] Eli: That's

[00:07:25] Danielle: definitely a different route.

[00:07:26] Eli: Yeah. No, it was, I fell in love with race bikes and I wanted to travel the world. look, me being a mechanic for race teams, that was my thing. I love motorcycles, but I like wrenching them. I like working on them more than I like writing them for, it's just my DNA, just how I like to be.

[00:07:43] Fast forward a bunch of years, I fell in love with shark diving. I went scuba diving and on my very first. Dive. I saw a shark and it terrified me. It excited me. filled me with everything that I enjoyed about wildlife to begin with.

[00:08:00] And it was coming out of the water that I realized I knew absolutely nothing about sharks. Everything I thought I knew was wrong.

[00:08:09] Mm-hmm. ,

[00:08:10] So I, came outta the water that day and I was just completely fascinated, really obsessed with learning more about sharks. So I, I bought every book I could find.

[00:08:20] I read as much as I could about them, and I just was like, I gotta get in the water with them some more. And it was on my very first, travel. I went to The Bahamas and it was on that experience is. What got me on this path that I'm on today was just like, I want to dive with sharks. I want to travel to exotic places.

[00:08:41] I want to meet amazing people,

[00:08:43] Danielle: How do you wait? Do okay? I, okay, so we're gonna get to the how. So you fell in love, and now it's the how, but I wanna go back. Do you remember the first shark, like in your, can you access that memory and do you know the shark?

[00:08:55] I can. What was it? It was a bull shark. Oh, whoa. Okay. Yeah. that's gnarly. Yeah, that is. okay. The first shark you ever swam with was a bull shark. I don't know why that's like the one that scares me. I, I can relate. So not to put on the therapy hat for, for anything other than just, I find this so interesting that the things that scared me, I wanted to learn more about, I found endlessly interesting.

[00:09:21] And when I was young it was the ocean, the deep ocean, And I really became, in the way that a suburban kid could really curious about sharks and very interested in sharks. And I would always talk about them and just rattle off a bunch of shark facts.

[00:09:36] And I, as you were talking, you reminded me of the fork in the road moment where I thought. What I thought was I wanted to work with animals. What I realized was, oh, I just kinda like you love turning wrenches more than you love racing. I love learning about animals more than I want to. I'll just tell the story.

[00:09:57] When I was, 13 or 14, I applied for a summer job at our Indianapolis Zoo. that really burst my bubble of what that was gonna mean. I wanted to work with animals. But I realized, I just wanted to play with the elephants. I didn't wanna do the dipping dots concession stand.

[00:10:14] So there's this sense of you, you were afraid you shared that. I dove with sharks. I swam with a bull shark. I came outta the water. I was afraid and then fascinated. is that something there, is that like a theme for you that you feel a jolt or a rush and then you wanna understand that rush more?

[00:10:31] Possibly,

[00:10:32] Eli: it was just more of like, when I saw the shark, I had two primal instincts, which was, one was to follow it. And the other was to get outta the water. That was just like those two conflicting feelings that was going through me.

[00:10:46] And the, when I was, I ran out of air really quick 'cause it was actually my very first ocean dive.

[00:10:51] Okay. So I was sitting on the surface, the dive master sent me up to the surface by myself, which is crazy. And when I think about it, man, I didn't know anything I was doing. I'm just looking down.

[00:11:01] I'm just like, really worried the shark is gonna come up and get me 'cause I'm on the surface. And that's all I knew. I always knew. I knew the jaw story. I knew a little, just very small snippets of information on sharks and Yeah. And it was completely opposite of what was happening. the shark wanted nothing to do with us.

[00:11:17] It tried to avoid us completely.

[00:11:18] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:11:19] Eli: Got out of the water and then the whole way back to port, I was just like, okay. He didn't come after us. He didn't want anything to do with this.

[00:11:28] Like, why? and it was that moment that was just like, after that I got out of the water, I'm like, okay. I gotta know. I gotta know. yeah.

[00:11:36] Danielle: what you thought you knew, conflicted with what you experienced, and you were trying to understand that more.

[00:11:42] Eli: Right.

[00:11:43] Danielle: That's really interesting. I can relate to that. I honestly think that's a big thread of what led me to therapy. I wanted to understand my internal experience more. And I think there's, steps of you're introduced to a concept and then you embody the concept.

[00:11:57] you're no longer having to consciously think about it, but really mastery when you're able to teach. And so I think in many ways I wanted to understand that enough to help others, but it began through my own experience and my own curiosity. so I feel like I should mention, How I got connected with you.

[00:12:16] I think social media gets a bad rap. it gets a lot of bad press, but thank God for social media. it was in 2012 or 13 and I was watching Shark Week because you always gotta be watching Shark Week.

[00:12:27] I was watching Shark Week and the whole episode I was watching was, they were trying to see could large species sharks experience the same temporary paralysis as smaller or baby sharks when they're flipped upside down for study? And I was, of course they're doing all of these great cuts, is it gonna work?

[00:12:43] Who knows? Is it gonna work? And of course, they're gonna end it with it working, you're on the edge of your seat. what are they gonna do? What are they gonna do? And they showed a clip of you with a tiger shark in The Bahamas and you were like hand feeding it. And then you stimulated the and you correct me with all the science terms, but you were like stimulating the sout and it just put it in this little trance and then you just tipped it upright.

[00:13:06] You just, it stood vertical and you held it just, a shark, a tiger shark. Yeah. I don't know. Was like 16 feet, 15 feet, something like that.

[00:13:15] Eli: Possibly. yeah. Anyway, it

[00:13:17] Danielle: blew my mind and I think I just made a post about it. I took a picture of my tv. I was like, my mind is blown.

[00:13:24] And then some weeks later you commented, thanks so much for the shout out. And that was one of those first moments. That really connected with oh, you can actually connect with the people who were doing things that you think is cool. it just, it really bridged this gap. And then once, of course, I found out what you and your family, 'cause it's a family band, it's like a whole, it's the whole family involved on these excursions.

[00:13:46] But as soon as I made that connection, my husband and I signed up to, swim with Whale Sharks with you and your wife, and your son and your daughter. So that's just, I feel like I gotta give credit to, the algorithm and the innerwebs for making that possible. 'cause I don't know if I would've even thought that was a possibility.

[00:14:05] Eli: Oh, that's, thanks for sharing that. I, man, that story just,,

[00:14:09] Danielle: mm-hmm.

[00:14:10] Eli: Wow. Just flooded with memory with that little piece.

[00:14:13] Danielle: Yeah, it was,

[00:14:14] When I set out to write a book, I only knew two things. One was I wanted to make big feelings, feel less scary and more approachable, and I wanted to bring some lightness to the feelings themselves. What I know to be true as a therapist is that emotions are energy in motion. They have information to tell you to inform the next right step to take and self-doubt, fear, anxiety, live in that space between knowing and not knowing.

[00:14:38] The second thing I knew was that I wanted to have fun in the process of making. This thing. The result is this wrestling a walrus for little people with big feelings, beautifully illustrated children's book that has a glossary at the end for some of the bigger feeling words. What this story does in a light and loving way is create context for those relationships.

[00:14:58] You can't change those people that you wish would treat you different. The things in life that we cannot control and yet we face that are hard. This book, it's a conversation starter for any littles in your life. Who want to create more safety and love and patience for some of those experiences. So hop one over to the show notes.

[00:15:16] You can pick it [email protected], barge de noble.com or my website. I hope that you do because I believe in this little book. I freaking love this little book, and I cannot wait to hear your experience with it. Thanks so much for listening and get back to the episode.

[00:15:29] Eli: those are fun, fun shows to do. and there's definitely a lot of benefits to social media, I think. I think it's a great tool. It's a great servant, A terrible master.

[00:15:41] That's the best way I can describe it. said. yeah, it is just, there's so many benefits to, connecting with people on the other side of the world to learning about unique places, to learning unique things. it's been one of my most important tools when finding new places for wildlife.

[00:15:58] but on the flip side, there's sometimes there's just too much information out there and too much because of it. it's made life difficult for wildlife, difficult for kids, difficult for, it's just. It can be too much. And that's the only downside

[00:16:14] Danielle: it's like, how we engage with it. It's an extension of how we are showing up with it, what we're looking for, what interests us.

[00:16:21] what I love about how you show up there and how your family shows up there with images is it really, I think, highlights How we operate. we look first and then we listen second. And so you'll capture these images or these videos that seem other worldly and it catches your attention enough.

[00:16:43] And if you can hold that attention enough, and it probably helps that your message is consistent of conservation, understanding, connecting with nature. when you can capture someone's attention with an image, just what happened with me?

[00:16:56] And then you can maybe engage in a dialogue . And it actually leads me to something, that you mentioned. Something I caught from your website that I really liked this language, that when people experience the wild, they understand and when they understand they care.

[00:17:12] And that sounds much like the experience you had swimming with the bull shark. But I wanna know more about that because you, not only through, your media outlets and the content you put out, but you are handholding, you're guiding people into the water or in, ocean and land safaris.

[00:17:31] And I wanna understand more about this concept 'cause I think it's true of emotions too. If you can't articulate what you're feeling, then when people don't have language for what they're experiencing, they usually shut down and collapse or they explode with rage. it's gotta go somewhere.

[00:17:46] And so when you can create context and language, you also create safety. it seems like with what you're guiding people through, you want them to understand and so that they care. yeah, tell me more.

[00:17:59] Eli: Yeah, that has a lot to do with just experiences being out in nature.

[00:18:04] I think nature is probably one of the best doctors on the planet. first and foremost, I think that people being around wildlife, people being in the ocean, people being in the wilderness, it replenishes your soul. It recharges your batteries. I think it just makes you a better person.

[00:18:21] it's through these connections and meeting wildlife and having people go out there in the wild and see these places and see these animals and they come back and they tell stories, they tell their friends.

[00:18:31] And hopefully it's through those kind of connections that,

[00:18:36] Conservation comes out of, like at the end of the day, the animals win. That's what you're hoping for is for the animals to win because these are voiceless souls on our planet that share this world with us. and without these people, without these experiences, they're completely vulnerable for lack of better words, to bigger business, to sadly going away, for lack of better words.

[00:18:56] Danielle: I think one of the biggest problems that animals have is that they are second class citizens on our planet that we share. And unfortunately, we're seeing our wild places disappear. alarmingly fast, and it's, I think that conservation ecotourism are probably the only tools left that are going to save, what's left of our wild places, what's left of our wildlife, Let's try to get some people on your wildlife safaris. What would be, so if someone's listening who has maybe like me, just from a television screen or from a social media account, wondered, that would be cool, but that could never work for me. I could never do something like that.

[00:19:40] That it just, when you're. Physical reality or even your mental reality feels so removed from the wild world. we live in boxed rooms and we're so connected with screens and, my wildlife outside my window is squirrels, cardinals.

[00:19:58] Eli: That's perfect.

[00:19:58] Danielle: So how would you speak life into someone saying yes to an adventure and where do they begin?

[00:20:07] Eli: Oh man. I think it really, first and foremost, it all comes down to your comfort level. I think that there's so many ways for people to reconnect with nature, whether it's hiking, whether it's biking, whether it's going to the beach for the day, watching a sunset.

[00:20:23] Just watching a sunset is so powerful. I think it's so important. I don't think we do it enough. I think that is probably the simplest way to remember that you are a part of something bigger and as simple as it sounds, it is so important. now watching a sunset in an amazing place is even 10 times better.

[00:20:42] It's that much more powerful. just, trying to reconnect with nature, I think the important part to remind people that yes. The earth is here. She is alive and she breathes and she's got a heartbeat every day. And I think that sunset is her heartbeat.

[00:20:55] and it's a great way to see it.

[00:20:57] Danielle: I just saw, I think it was nasa, release some footage of a particular, some type of lens on a satellite that was able to actually detect a pulse on the earth.

[00:21:08] Like the earth has a heartbeat, but I'm sure the more sciencey people have another way of explaining it. but that it caught my attention. And that feels just right on par with what you're saying when the heart space and the head space connect, I think that's where magic happens.

[00:21:22] Like when you can believe it in your mind, but then you experience it in your body, that is, powerful. I think everybody needs to have an experience like getting into the deep ocean or going out into the wild nature. I really think everybody should have that in their life at least once.

[00:21:40] But I wanna share a little bit about what my experience was like , with, um, you and your wife swimming with winter parks, because it was there was so much momentum for me built up into what I thought that experience was gonna be because from the time I understood. Little mermaid, Disney to the time I, could name the dolphin body parts and thought that's what I wanted to be like this, there was so much emotional charge and I'm gonna go in the water and I'm gonna swim and it's gonna be great.

[00:22:11] And I just had this idea that I'm gonna connect with this shark. We're gonna make eye contact and it's gonna, we're gonna just be on the same vibe. so many expectations that I never expressed, but they were all there. I was, probably trying to keep it cool. But, no,the reality it, the i'll, I will just to skip to the end, the reality far exceeds whatever I imagine.

[00:22:31] the first day was me reconciling what I thought it would be and what it really was. Getting on a little charter boat going way out in the middle of the gulf and. Then, I think sturgeon were spawning and that was what was drawing the sharks. And so it made visibility like all of these little eggs were refracting light.

[00:22:51] So it was this very sparkly, but also sometimes visibility was funky. And the thing that I couldn't wrap my head around was from the boat. You could look out at the water and see, I don't know, a dozen whale sharks at any given time, but then you get in the water and adrenaline hits and I don't know where they are.

[00:23:13] I can't see them. It's just having very little to no experience in the deep water. That was such a jolt and a shock to my system. and then being in the water with an animal, 20 feet, 25 feet, 30 feet long, My nervous system just didn't know how to compute. it was so much, I don't think I'd ever been that tired, ever.

[00:23:37] Just, it took so much outta me. And then, day 2, 3, 4, each day got a little easier 'cause I had a better idea of what to expect. And also I didn't, you're covered in fish eggs, you're culvert in fish eggs. So the, the imagination that I would become this mermaid this other worldly creature and have this like soul bond with a whale shark, it wasn't that.

[00:23:59] But the real life experience was incredible too. But I just, I don't, and I guess I don't really know where I'm leading with the question, but how do you see when having guided so many people through these moments? Like for somebody who's thinking about. Possibly planning an experience like that?

[00:24:20] Like what, how do you prepare what would be good for someone to prepare for what that is like?

[00:24:26] Eli: Wow, man. it's so different for everybody. it's just, valid.

[00:24:30] Danielle: Valid. Then everybody maybe wants to be

[00:24:32] Eli: Yeah. there's a few that want to be mermaids for sure on our trips. I'm not gonna lie.

[00:24:38] but yeah, it's just really these animals the whale shark is a great, I call 'em, they're like gateway animals into a bigger world because, when it comes to seeing orcas and whales and of all different species and sharks, a whale shark is possibly,

[00:24:55] It's a great ambassador for the species because they're a harmless species. They're just like big giant catfish floating on the surface. and it's a wonderful animal for someone of all ages to experience. it really is,

[00:25:10] the whale shark, and I don't know if you had man rays on your trip as well, because Sometimes they show up every other year. The man ray is another, ocean angel. they're just, they're just, the perfect animal for people, for if you wanna.

[00:25:24] Experience the ocean. If you wanna experience what life is like in the ocean, in a Disney way, that is the perfect animal to do it with. It's just very safe. it's a phenomenal, way to decide if, you know what? I would like to do more of things like this, or, this was perfect, this was enough.

[00:25:43] You know,

[00:25:45] Danielle: I wanna go back to something, something that you wrote that I really liked. that reminded me.

[00:25:50] Even though we are talking about safari, we're talking about adventure, we're talking about animals, I think the more specific we become in a way, the more universal it becomes. And this quote made me think about a lot of the stuff that you write, it's a Mark Twain quote that travel is fatal to prejudice.

[00:26:09] once you see something, you can't unsee something. I wanna speak to the, Why beyond conservation? if I'm not connected to nature, if I'm not connected to animals and I've got enough going on in my life, that conservation, cool, I'm glad someone's taking care of it, but that's not my focus.

[00:26:29] What would be a personal selfish reason that would be maybe a call to action that you like? What would be the invitation for somebody individually, not globally, not, for any other reason, like why it could change your life to jump into the deep or get in a Jeep with no top and go drive out to a pride of lions.

[00:26:55] what is the reason that you could articulate why somebody should do that?

[00:27:00] Eli: I think the wildlife is, they're reminders of where we all came from. we were all of us in our DNA, if you look at the generations of people that have lived on this planet, at some point we were all part of that. We were all out there.

[00:27:18] there wasn't this separation between us and our wild places. whether it was the ocean, whether it was a jungle. some of our ancestors had to deal with bears in their front porch. some of our ancestors had to deal with lions walking through camp.

[00:27:34] that's something that we have either. Blocked out or forgotten. Obviously we've forgotten just because of generations of separation from it. But we are all part of that. We are all part of this world. beyond our cars and our homes and our clothes, we are part of nature a hundred percent.

[00:27:55] We've forgotten this. And I think these are great reminders to remind us, Hey, this is where we all come from. This is, we're not separated from these things. we are very much a part of these things. And if anything, there are so many species that, although they're no longer, relevant in our world, they're so important for our world, not only as reminders, but as part of this giant balance, because we're all connected in some way, in some form.

[00:28:23] we're all for lack of better, we're all one. And I think it's important. To remind people that, like we, we need to stay connected. We need to protect these animals because, they're much a part of this earth as we are. and we have to remind people that they're there yeah, that, that's,

[00:28:44] This is our home. This is their home. This is our home.

[00:28:47] Danielle: And I also, what I'm hearing too, it's they, when you're in communion with nature, you become more in touch with, or in tune with your own natural rhythm, your own self. There's, you might actually, know him or, 'cause I would imagine the community, like the pool you're in terms of career is probably small, I'm just guessing.

[00:29:07] But, Boyd Verdi, he's from South Africa, he wrote The Lion Tracker's Guide to Life He has a property in South Africa called Alose. It was a game preserved. Okay. Yeah. Yes, I, and but his work in that book is basically teaching people to track wild animals, helps them become more in touch with the rhythms of nature.

[00:29:29] And by, not by default, but through becoming more in tune with tracking nature, you, your track, like your path. So I think so many of the clients I attract are struggling with anxiety, depression, and burnout. And I think a lot of the confusion and self doubt and, head trash is also rooted in, I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

[00:29:54] It's that maybe they don't articulate it like that, but it's experienced that way of just, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. As opposed to, I wanna know what I'm called to do. I wanna know what I'm meant to do or what I want to do. my dog never questions when she's hungry, when she's tired, like she is completely embodied because she doesn't have this giant brain getting in her way of everything.

[00:30:19] And I love hearing you talk about the more in tune you are with nature, you are reminded that you are nature too.

[00:30:27] Eli: it's it's so important for people to stay connected to nature and it's getting worse. I think it's just part of I.

[00:30:35] Part of what I feel is that they're completely pulling us away from it. I think that unhealthy feeling, I remember having it as a growing up. I remember there was many times where I didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't know, what my calling was but I always just, I remember standing there and just looking around saying, something's wrong.

[00:31:00] I don't belong here.

[00:31:01] Danielle: that's something's wrong. the language I like to use. with clients is, that's usually what gets people into an appointment with me first. It's when I say it's like your smoke detector's going off. 'cause your smoke detector can't tell the difference between burning toast or bacon and a fire in some part of your house, but it's just beeping 'cause it senses smoke, something's wrong.

[00:31:20] And so I think a lot of times getting that emotional awareness or that clarity starts with something's wrong and then you sit with that. But then the discomfort, it's like I think about that story with you and the bull shark the first time it's, I either need to chase it and funnel down with it or I need to run away from it.

[00:31:40] And I think that tension is what happens every time we hit a big emotion or a fork in the road or we're at a growth edge, we're about to change. but I think that is the. Following the path of curiosity is almost always what leads you down to some new sense of understanding, about yourself or the world.

[00:32:00] I wanna, do you have, of all of the experiences you've led other people through, do you have It could be one, it could be more than one, it might even be with a member of your family, but have you seen, like shifts happen in people that just observed? 'cause I have over the years seen many powerful shifts happen in sessions, but it's such an intimate thing, but where you're out in the wild with someone, are there any moments that stand out to you of just being like, whoa, this person is different, or this person is really having an experience here?

[00:32:35] Eli: Yeah. I have this one gentleman who. would do adventures. he would do travel on his own, and then he went on one of our trips a very successful, businessman. and I could see that this was just something he was doing for like, and that's interesting.

[00:32:54]

[00:32:54] Danielle: on

[00:32:54] Eli: That's so interesting. Yeah. He was, he was on the trip And he was there to experience the animal, but it was almost like a science project, it wasn't like it was super into the animal. Like he was intellectualizing it. he was, it was like, it wasn't like

[00:33:11] a bucket list. It was like, okay, I'm on this journey of I'm gonna photograph wildlife. Now, I've been photographing these other things and I'm gonna photograph wildlife now. we went out there, he had the experience and it was almost like this.

[00:33:25] Yeah. You could feel the shift of just now I get it. oh, I got a goosebump thinking about it. Yeah. it was like now. Okay, okay. You know, it was, it was,

[00:33:35] Danielle: it was like his body, like it kicked on.

[00:33:38] Eli: Yeah. something inside him came alive

[00:33:41] And it was just like more. And it was a completely different, more than when he first started and it was something

[00:33:47] Danielle: beside him came alive. That gave me chills. I almost wonder if it's the distinction of when you were describing a sunset, like the difference between driving in your car and you're getting somewhere as the sun happens to be going down and you're doing a million other things versus watching a sunset and taking it in.

[00:34:08] So not being just a passive observer, but being a present participant in the moment.

[00:34:14] Eli: Yeah. Purposely trying to watch, I'm going to this spot because I want to see the sunset, or I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop to put my phone down and I'm gonna watch the sunset. Even if you take your phone, you know you're watching it through your phone as you wanna record it, because that's what we do now.

[00:34:31] just that act alone of purposely trying to do that is significant. It is life changing to sometimes for some people.

[00:34:38] Danielle: That's awesome. that was a really good answer. I wanna hear a little bit more. So I was circling back, you were starting to connect how that first dive, you were scuba diving, you saw the bull shark, you were swimming up to the surface, and then you almost started to shift to how that led you down this path.

[00:34:57] I wanna go back to that and maybe if I could jump forward a little bit more in your story. You created Shark Diver Magazine in 2003, and you said you had 25 publications and then it really, the business model really shifted to your excursions. I wanna know more about, deciding to launch a magazine that sounds so ambitious, 25.

[00:35:21] me trying to put a blog out sometimes feels like a real effort. but 25 publications is no small thing. And then you shifted it to excursions. it's one thing to do something yourself as a hobbyist or as an enthusiast, but you're leading people with all varying degrees of experience.

[00:35:40] Some people that wanna be, mermaids and you're leading all types of people from all over the world on these trips and you're dealing with a lot of personalities. I would love to know more about how you made that shift from the magazine into leading your safaris.

[00:35:55] Eli: Yeah, it was, so I started the magazine, in 2003. I didn't know anything about publishing. I didn't know anything about photography. I didn't know. Anybody in the business. And I had never really written anything outside of my journals before.

[00:36:14] Danielle: So it was just like, I am, I'm so excited by this.

[00:36:16] You're like, I am gonna build a rocket ship, but I don't have an engineering degree. I don't understand the mechanics. and I've never flown on a plane, but I'm gonna build a rocket ship.

[00:36:25] Eli: what I did. Yeah. So I just, I went all in. I've always had a love affair with magazines as far as, any sport that I was into.

[00:36:34] Had a magazine dedicated to it with mountain biking, surfing, rock climbing, scuba diving. but there was nothing dedicated to shark diving. And that's the area that I fell in love with. And I said, here's my, and I really was trying to find. A vehicle. And a way to get into the industry, to make a name for myself, coming from Landlock, Texas.

[00:36:54] there was, this was my way in. This was an opportunity. And this is all pre-social media, so it was all from scratch and trying to create this business. And, yeah, we did it for eight years. I published 25 issues and it was a lot of fun. And it was, a lot of laying in bed going, what the hell did I do?

[00:37:14] Why did I do this to myself? And, this is crazy. And it was fueled by also, I, the first pub, the first magazine I came out with, a family friend. I overheard him in the distance, say I wonder if it's gonna be around in a year. And that, so I wrote those words down and I put it in my office.

[00:37:36] and that, inspired me to make it to the first year it was a, and then after that, I made it to the second and the third. it was just this labor of love. This, chance for me to tell stories, chance for me to share this world with people.

[00:37:50] because, when I first started and when I was looking through the books, it really felt like, , a, a club. And it really felt more like a researcher's club more than anything else. It was like, the guys who had access to all these amazing places were usually the scientists, the shark scientists, the shark researchers.

[00:38:06] And it really didn't feel like it was open to guys like me. And so this is the world that I wanted to create. I wanted to create a world where it was open to. Sharks were accessible to the world. And that's what I wanted to do with this magazine. and what I wanted to do with my storytelling is invite everybody who was really interested in sharks like myself and help them find places where they could dive with these animals and read stories from fellow people like myself that were not all scientists, we're not all research.

[00:38:36] yeah. So that was the idea. That was what I really wanted to do when I started the magazine. And then, trying to get advertisers to be interested in us when we had zero subscribers and no real history, and it was just like, mm-hmm. That was an impossible feat. So I don't know where I came up with the idea.

[00:38:54] Somebody either shared that idea with me or I was doing my research. I just decided to try to organize, oh, I know what it was. It was one of my potential sponsors asking me to organize a trip. And that's what started the opportunities is it's a great way to raise money.

[00:39:12] If I can get people to travel with us, we can use that money to help publish the magazine. Yeah. And that's what the first trips were. So May I ran our first expedition to North Carolina for Sand Tiger Sharks in May of 2003. So that first year coming out of the box, we, we brought some people and we just started doing that.

[00:39:32] So from the first year we organized those trips, and then we just, it just kept going. and it was, and it ended up being the way I funded the magazine for the first eight years. I didn't, after that I really didn't chase sponsors very much because I just didn't like, I'd go to a travel show.

[00:39:48] And then we, and. It would be, I would end up being that magazine guy that's just trying to get money from me. Yeah. And I didn't like that feeling at all. So I just said, you know what, I don't need to do this. this is what the trips are about. It's reader sponsored, and I can do whatever I want with a magazine.

[00:40:04] I can tell the stories the way I want to tell 'em. and so that's what I did.

[00:40:08] Danielle: I think because we've all been sold so many different times through so many different channels, it's like you can feel it when it's coming at you.

[00:40:15] And nobody likes that. So it's just so much this is what it is, this is what we're doing, this is what I like. gosh, having come from different sales backgrounds and have family and my husband who's in sales, it's like when a sale happens, you're really just offering information.

[00:40:31] It's I don't, my guess is you're not selling people ongoing on your trips, right? People are already interested. You're giving them the information and then that's when they say yes. But you're not going out selling people on doing it. I feel like I'm trying to do that for you. 'cause I just think more people need to do it.

[00:40:46] You are very intentionally not doing that. I want to acknowledge the predator myth, I found it really interesting that you were passionate about dispelling the predator myth. I wanna understand that better because obviously we all know how sharks are portrayed.

[00:41:01] we've seen all those things. but I think the ocean, deep ocean and what we fear in the ocean, it correlates to emotions, big, uncomfortable feelings. I don't think it's called a therapy myth, but there has to be something terribly wrong to seek that type of help or seek that type of guidance.

[00:41:20] and I wanna know more in your world, in your space, what is the predator myth and what do you want people to know?

[00:41:28] Eli: Oh, for me its exactly what I was brought up believing about sharks is just that, sharks are mindless monsters and they're just out to get you.

[00:41:37] And the moment you step in the ocean, there's gonna be a shark down there. And, I've heard this. My entire life that, oh, I'll never jump off a boat into the ocean because there's just sharks waiting.

[00:41:47] Danielle:

[00:41:47] Eli: me, and it's completely opposite. I really wish that if I just went out into the ocean, jumped off a boat and there'd be a bunch of sharks there, it's just not the reality.

[00:41:58] It takes so much work to find these animals. It takes a lot of effort and usually the people That get lucky and say, oh look, there's a great white under my boat. they're the ones who don't wanna see sharks. the people that wanna see sharks like a great white under their boat, never get to see a great white under their boat.

[00:42:15] that's just the way nature works. But, yeah, for me it was more about, trying to help people pass this prejudice, pass this belief system that is ingrained in us, that's actually probably ingrained in our DNA

[00:42:27] So it's very much ingrained in all of us from the beginning. And the more I understood sharks, the more I wanted to get rid of that stigma as best I could. Yeah. I started doing a lot of, Talks at schools and helping kids with, sharing, what I know about sharks, and I've through the years, really figured out what works and what doesn't.

[00:42:48] And I used to show pictures of sharks and try to get people to dispel their fear with just a picture of shark, but in their mind, it's still a shark.

[00:42:57] But when I started sharing videos of myself with a shark in my arms and giving a back rub and rolling them upside down and just, like a shark sticking his face between my knees so I could scratch his back.

[00:43:10] and showing these kids these images and showing these kids that, this other side, and you could see it, you see it in the teachers. they're just like, wait. Mm-hmm. Wait, what? Wait, what? It's like you wake them up, you wake up something primal in them and say, wait, that's possible.

[00:43:24] Danielle: yes. That you just said it, 'cause I think that you don't have to prove to someone what you're saying is true, but what you're showing them is it's possible. I think it's when you don't believe it's possible, that's when people freeze or shut down or wanna give up or stop.

[00:43:39] And it's when we're afraid we want control, we want contracts, we want guarantees, we want promises, we need something ironclad. But, there is no guarantee. But knowing that, there's something possible that's really, yeah. I feel that really deeply. Yeah. you're igniting possibility in people.

[00:43:58] It, you also just reminded me too, I love Leopard Sharks. I've never swam with them, but, I love leopard Sharks and I feel like that. That shark more than any other, you see them almost act like little dogs, like just anyone listening, just Google videos of like leopard shark pups. And they swear, they just act like dogs.

[00:44:14] So cute down. They're beautiful. What is the, what do you think is the biggest gap in our understanding of not just predators, but marine life, wildlife? what's our biggest gap in understanding?

[00:44:29] Eli: I think it's disconnect. like you said earlier, it's, oh, I'm glad somebody out there is doing it.

[00:44:34] that kind of thing. It's it's not for me. I got too many things I'm doing in my life, my life is a mess, Lack of empathy for something. and that has to do with disconnect because it's more of, it's talking about the shark,

[00:44:46] it's one thing to talk about, it's another thing for people to see it. And, in them, me, roll the tiger. just like open that up in your mind, the fascination in your mind of oh wow, like I didn't even know this was a thing. Or if it's even possible. And that's what I've tried to do

[00:45:01] predators and with crocodiles and anacondas and all the other animals that I dive with is just showing the other side of these animals and, their place in the world And how important they are. And it's not just, when we jump in the water with an anaconda and if, people are so surprised to know that it's.

[00:45:18] the Anaconda is terrified and all he's trying to do is hide from us. So you're looking at a 18 foot, 20 foot long snake. the moment I jump in the water and he's just like, where do I hide? it's like he's completely terrified of my presence.

[00:45:32]

[00:45:32] Danielle: the crocodile, those images just, everyone should visit Eli's, social media channels as soon as you, you stop listening to this episode, just go scroll through and look. But the crocodile one, those, late night scrolling, when I see one of those images that stops me in my tracks, and I thought I was pretty open-minded with nature, but man, that, that makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

[00:45:54] That's wild.

[00:45:56] Eli: I used to say Crocs of the new Sharks. Okay, sure. I feel that makes sense. So yeah, because for years, right? when I started the magazine in 2003, it was still Steve Irwin. Mm-hmm. The late great Steve Irwin was still diving with Tiger Sharks in a cage.

[00:46:11] on his show, he was showing, that diving with them in a cage. so for years they're like,it's impossible to dive with tigers outside of a cage. Then, in The Bahamas and Fiji, they're diving with tigers outside the cage and they're like, you can do it during the day, but you can't do it at night.

[00:46:27] So we started diving with tigers at night, and then they're like, you can do that with a tiger, but you can't do it with a great white. Yeah, we're diving outside the cage with great whites. And so, I mean, it was just like, well, you could do it with sharks, but you can't do it with crocodiles.

[00:46:39] Danielle: You're right. You're right. It's the same prejudice, just moving into a different face.

[00:46:44] Eli: Right. Oh, interesting. The same thing with orcas too. Like you can, when they're like, you can't swim with an orca. we started swimming with orcas and then, you can do it with these, but you can't do it with the pelagic orcas because, they're a lot more aggressive and they eat sea lions.

[00:46:56] And so we're diving with those species too. it's just they're always trying to find, and it's usually people who don't swim with these animals that are creating the ideas that people believe,

[00:47:07] Danielle: you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it's like the people that aren't the mechanics or the one trying to pump the brakes.

[00:47:12] Um, I, so I saw on your social media just this morning that you said the duck bill platypus is your unicorn. Yes. That was, it wasn't intended to be a question, but I have to ask, why is the Depa plat picture your unicorn

[00:47:24] Eli: as a kid? I, that was one of the first most exotic animals I had ever seen.

[00:47:31] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:47:31] Eli: This book in second grade, that I read about the platypus and it was, the fact that it lays eggs and that it's got a duck bill and it looks like a beaver, but it's not. and it was just a fascination was born in that moment. And it was something that like, I have to see this animal.

[00:47:50] Like I just have to, so it's always been, it's been my unicorn. I have, I'm ashamed to say I've never been to Australia.

[00:47:57] But as soon as I do, that is like task number one. I gotta see a platypus like this. Okay.

[00:48:03] Danielle: that was gonna be my follow up question because I embarrassingly don't know where the poses live. So I was gonna ask you where would one, find one. Okay. So Australia. Perfect. I actually think there's a couple of Australian listeners. I don't know where in Australia. I just see this map and wherever it's highlighted that shows where people have downloaded episodes.

[00:48:20] So anyone in Australia don't miss your opportunity to catch a platypus because Eli's gonna come snap some photos. Okay. So we're nearing the end and I'm really excited to lay out the don't cut your own bangs moment with you. 'cause I have a feeling you probably have too many that could just fill up its own episode.

[00:48:41] But I would love to know what a don't cut your own bang moment is for you.

[00:48:45] Eli: I spent a big part of my youth trying to become a professional bull writer growing up in Texas. What.

[00:48:57] Danielle: Okay. Okay. This is good. This is already, this is already one of the top two. Okay. Go on.

[00:49:01] Eli: So I wanted to be a world champion bull rider.

[00:49:04] I ate, drank, dream, slept, dreamed bull riding. I was in love with the sport.

[00:49:09] And it was during, I was working on my pro permit when I cracked my hip at a show and I gave myself three months to heal. And it was during that time, one of my best friends got a scuba diving certification and he was telling me about it.

[00:49:25] So I had three months off. So I took the time to get my scuba certification.

[00:49:30] Danielle: After I got scuba certified, I went, I just wanna, I just wanna put a brief pause. So your time off was actually you healing a fractured hip. You weren't. Oh, okay. So in your off time with a fractured hip, you got your scuba certification?

[00:49:45] Eli: Yes, exactly. Okay. Okay. Cool. Okay, go on, go on.

[00:49:51] So it was on that, on that bowl that I, when I cracked my hip, I got, I got scuba certified. I went to Kmel, I saw a shark. I came back from that adventure. I was, I went to my next rodeo and I was behind the chutes. And I fell off my bowl and all I had, I usually would throw a fit. When I would buck off, I would just, so angry at myself.

[00:50:15] But off, after that ride, I was behind the chutes and I had Caribbean music, blue water, white sand sharks floating through my mind. I was like, I'm done. I'm going shark diving. And, so not becoming a professional bull rider was the best thing that never happened to me.

[00:50:34] Danielle: Oh, that is so, that is good.

[00:50:39] And I feel like those, those moments, that perspective is unfortunately earned in hindsight. It's so hard to trust in those moments when you're down with a fractured hip or saying goodbye to an old dream, feeling like you're starting over. That is hard. I mean, in your magazine was that too? But you can even see now in the full expression of what your business is, how learning to tell stories, learning to create a narrative, learning to take images and then not just take images that are clear and focus, but that are also telling a visual story.

[00:51:18] And you've passed that on to your daughter who, she's a wildlife photographer in the making. I mean she is and is continuing to be, but it's like all of those steps. But it's, all of those things led to the next thing, but I think it only could have, because you followed the curiosity as opposed to maybe drowning in what you were losing.

[00:51:41] You allowed yourself to become curious about where you wanted to go. And I think that's a really remarkable quality. That's a good, that's a great emotionally resilient quality.

[00:51:52] Eli: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, thanks. I just, uh, yeah. It was, it was, that was a huge chunk of my life that I just I gave up, but it felt right.

[00:52:02] It felt right. And it was just like, that's why I think maybe that. Let's see if he's still around in a year. Doing that came from just because I was like, okay, he is gonna be a bull rider now. He is gonna be a shark diver.

[00:52:15] Danielle: Yes. my background was on ballroom dance. I taught, before that I did commercial acting.

[00:52:20] my plan was to move to la I had a very similar, about face, very big pivot and started teaching ballroom dance. Did that for about seven years. And I just felt that pressure where I'm about to grow outta my shell. I knew it was not this, but I wasn't crystal clear on what that was.

[00:52:38] I just knew not this. And so little step by little step, I found my way in grad school and I was, about 11 years older than every other person in that particular class when I decided to switch careers and do what I'm doing now. But yeah, I always appreciate when people can share those moments like that.

[00:52:58] 'cause I think what I'm doing is trying to build up a bank of stories that would've comforted those versions of me that was just so terrified about to do something new. .

[00:53:08] This was so exciting. Thank you for being here. I'm excited for everybody to, check out your account, look at all your images, sign up for a trip, just take the leap, put a deposit down on an adventure.

[00:53:22] Just scroll through. Pick an animal that terrifies you and just say yes to that one. I can't wait for everybody to hear this. Awesome. Thank you so much.

[00:53:30] Thank you so much for tuning into this week's episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. I hope that you enjoyed it as much as I did recording it, because this in so many ways was a dream come true if you couldn't tell by the episode itself. I wanna leave you with , a quote that I pulled from Eli that was said in the episode, but really is the heart of what this episode is, as well as what I hope to bring to every episode.

[00:53:55] When people experience the wild, they understand and when they understand they care If you replace the wild with the self. When people experience the self, they understand and when they understand they care. The more I understand my own emotional landscape, the more equipped and empowered I feel to navigate it.

[00:54:22] The more empathetic, the more compassionate, the more connected I feel with the people in my life. The people who I believe have wronged me with my past. I feel more hopeful for my future. That connection to the self, our essential self or nature, the natural world around us is I think what makes us unique in the experience we get to have on this planet.

[00:54:47] So if you haven't already decided you're gonna book your adventure, this might be your call. Whether that adventure is outside your window looking at a sunset,

[00:54:58] but I want that for you. I want that for me, and I think we all deserve to have that kind of magic. We can make it if we want it. Thank you for tuning in this week. I look forward to catching you next time, and as always, I hope you continue to have a wonderful day.

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