E138: Hidden Rules of Ownership Explained

El Podcast

A deep dive into Michael Heller & James Salzman’s Mine, exploring how modern “ownership engineering” shapes innovation, resource access, and societal outcomes.

Guest Bios

• Michael Heller: Vice Dean & Professor of Real Estate Law at Columbia Law School; economist and property theorist; author of Mine: How the Hidden Rules of Ownership Control Our Lives; former World Bank advisor on post-communist property reforms.
• James Salzman: Professor of Environmental Law at UCLA & UC Santa Barbara; expert in resource management and property law; co-author of Mine; taught at Duke Law and advised on water policy and environmental regulation.

Topics Discussed

• Ownership gridlock in pharmaceuticals and biotech patents
• Copyright fragmentation (MLK speeches, music sampling)
• “Remote control” of behavior via ticketing (Duke basketball “camp-out”)
• Property conflicts: solar panels vs. redwood trees, adverse possession cases
• Digital ownership: AI training data, EV feature subscriptions, Amazon cart analogy
• Historical and international property transitions (post-Soviet housing reforms)
• Jurisdictional experiments in ownership law (state labs, South Dakota trusts, Puerto Rico tax incentives)

Three Main Points

• Ownership Engineering: Rights aren’t natural—they’re designed tools (“remote controls”) wielded to steer behavior, from seating fans to shaping markets.
• Gridlock & Fragmentation: Excessive, overly granular property rights (patents, copyrights) can stifle innovation and access—too many owners, too few outcomes.
• Digital vs. Physical Property: The shift to “ones and zeros” erodes traditional possession; corporations gain power to add or remove features, while users overestimate what they truly own.

Top Three Quotes

• “Possession plus time equals ownership—may not be just or moral, but it certainly is powerful.”
• “Savvy companies think of their ownership as a remote control: they press buttons to steer you without you even realizing it.”
• “In a world of ones and zeros, what you feel you own is often one-tenth of what you actually own—Amazon and Tesla already know this.”

🎙 The Pod is hosted by Jesse Wright
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