560: The Real Estate Market Just Changed Forever, Two GRE Listener-Guests

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Keith discusses the evolution of the real estate market over the past five years, highlighting a 43% price surge from March 2020 to June 2022 due to low mortgage rates, remote work, and government stimulus.

By 2024, single-family home prices stabilized, but apartment values dropped by 30%.

Mortgage rates have remained around 6-7.5% for 20 months, with national home prices rising 2% in the past year.

We introduce two listener guests: Josh Fang, a 28-year-old investor who bought five properties using his income from a mortgage loan officer job, and Nate O'Neil, an experienced investor who leveraged his corporate job to fund his real estate portfolio.

Show Notes:

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 0:01

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, over the past five years, the real estate market has changed forever. So what are you supposed to do now? Then I talked to two GRE listener guests back to back. Here's some relatable stories this week on get rich education.

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Speaker 1 1:48

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education. You

Keith Weinhold 1:58

Keith, welcome to GRE from Augusta Maine to Augusta Georgia and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are back inside get rich education if you got trapped in a cave back in 2020, and then you came above ground into the sunlight of 2025 and wondered what happened to the real estate investment market over the last five years. Here's the answer, and what it means to you, even if you weren't trapped in a cave, and I sure hope you didn't have to fight off a bat colony either. During the pandemic housing boom of 2020, to 2022 housing demand soared, in fact, from March of 2020, to June of 2022, prices surged a staggering 43% and rents ballooned too. And that was all amidst a few things, ultra low mortgage rates, a remote work boom and government stimulus. And for many, this unlocked Americans work from anywhere arbitrage. High earners were able to keep their income in, say, New York City or LA, pack up their laptop and head for state income tax free havens like Tampa or Nashville, and builders could not keep up. See housing supply, stock is not as elastic as demand. It's like steering a cruise ship. It doesn't turn out a dime. Inventory was drained, and you know, we had a full on housing supply crash that dipped to its Nadir in February of 2022 but just after that, all types of interest rates spiked later in 2022 to help stifle rising inflation, and what that did is that that quickly quelled homeowner affordability. Return to Office mandates began to gain momentum. National housing demand pulled back a near 180 was quickly underway. Sales volume tanked, and that put a lot of people in the industry out of business, realtors, mortgage loan officers, even furniture companies out of business by 2024 prices in the single family to fourplex space stabilized just with a slow growth rate, but apartment values lost as much as 30% from 2022 to 24 due to devastating interest rate resets under shorter term loans, and meanwhile, the income required to buy a modest starter home rose from 49k in 2020 to 101k last year. That's pretty NAR and the term forever renter became both a meme and a. Reality, and since construction, efforts to build have been uneven, apartment supply actually exceeds demand in a lot of markets, and over in the one to four unit space by adding inventory, there's now 30% more available year over year, but it remains under supplied nationally, especially like I've discussed in the Northeast and Midwest, where building has been meager to completely non existent. That's why it can still feel impossible to find a house in much of Ohio or New Jersey, but you can rent an apartment in Austin, Texas faster than you can get a Wendy's drive through order. Mortgage rates have now stayed in this same range of six to seven and a half for 20 months, and national home prices are up just about 2% in the past year. Now, when Trump began his second term in January of 2025 markets got giddy with business friendly optimism, but this Trump bump that reversed fast when he slapped half the planet with tariffs housing demand cooled again, because no one buys a house when they feel like their job might vanish, alright? So amidst all of that. How do you adjust your strategy with what's changed over the past five years? Well, real estate still pays five ways, and since you're not betting it all on price growth like you would be with most other asset classes, this way, you've always got a side to play with. Affordability down now, rental demand is heating up. With more inventory on the market for you to purchase, there are more motivated sellers, especially those shiny build to rent homes. You do still have to deal with mortgage rates that are higher than they were four or five years ago. Refinance on the rate dips if there's low inflation rates fall if there's high inflation, well, then your debt arose faster. So this is what I mean about you having the ability to play both sides today, and this is big, the number of renter households are at a record high, and they're rising. Landlords are giving fewer concessions. Increasingly, they hold the cards in the single family rental space and annual rent growth is expected to heat up from its current zero to 3% Well, what is next? Short term housing value should stay stable, but not sore, and don't count on a big mortgage rate drop at all for the rest of the year long term, expect more inflation in strong demographic demand. Those things are almost certainties, and that's the good part for real estate investors. So really the overall market report card today, let's grade it out in a report card, sellers are doing just okay. Buyers are strained. First time home buyers are in the worst, the roughest shape. I mean, they grade out at an F single family rental landlords are in good shape because people that want to buy a single family home can't, so they rent apartment landlords, they are strained, and renters are holding steady. They're doing pretty well until steeper rent increases kick in. So really, the bottom line here is that it's been a more tumultuous five years than usual. Housing demand lapse supply and now it's coming closer back into balance today, home prices are stable, the amount of buyers are waning, and the hordes of renters are growing. And where are we today? Well, earlier this month, our president called our Fed chair a numbskull.

Donald Trump 8:56

If we cut our interest by one point for years, we save 300 billion. If we cut it by two points, we save because it's pretty equivalent we're going to save, we're going to spend 600 billion a year. 600 billion because of one numb skull that sits here. I don't see enough reason to cut the rates now.

Keith Weinhold 9:21

oh dear leaving you with a little knee slapper on the five year summary there. Look poor and middle class people feel like everything is expensive. That's because they pay for everything with money they've exchanged their time for. That means they feel like they're paying for everything with their life, because they are and that's exactly why money feels like a scarce resource. Instead, real estate investors pay for things according to what our assets are producing for us and what other people's money is producing for us. And that's why we can pay for what we want, and money feels like an abundant resource, not a scarce one. That's what today's two listener guests discovered somewhere along their path, fueled by this show. Now sometimes I answer your listener questions here on the show when you write into us at get rich education.com/contact, other times, I bring listener guests right here onto the show. That's what we're doing today. Today's both happen to be based in California. The first guest is a young investor, and the second guest more experienced. These were just recorded. Understand they aren't professional speakers. And also, if you bear with a few early audio difficulties with our first guest, you're going to be rewarded with some relatable takeaways. Our first listener guest, Josh Fang, started listening to the get rich education podcast as a college student in 2016 or 17. He first heard episode 84 that's when Robert Kiyosaki made his first appearance here. That episode was called the rich don't work for money. Then he went back to Episode One and listened to them all, 560 episodes. Now let's meet him.

This week's GRE listener guest is a 28 year old real estate investor based out of Irvine, California. That's SoCal, and he has already reached what he calls semi work, optional status, fantastic. He's been a GRE listener since 2017 that was at age 20 when he was a junior in college. The GRE podcast inspired him to become a mortgage loan officer, and he's become a top performer at doing that, originating loans after graduating college. He used the money from that mortgage loan officer job starting at age 22 to buy five income properties, two through mid south home buyers and three elsewhere. By the way. Again, he's 28 now. GRE quite literally shaped his adult life, and having enough passive income to fully retire is pretty much his only goal. Now he's got passion for talking financial freedom through smart borrowing, strategic thinking and action over perfection. Oh, I love that. Hey, welcome to GRE. Josh Fang, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it here on the show, I talk about borrowing and lending a good bit, because if you're gonna make something of yourself, you need to leverage the efforts of others. So tell us about how you got your first job in the mortgage industry and how it set the foundation for your investing journey. Josh,

Josh Fang 12:31

when I graduated, it was really rough. I had a business degree which didn't really open up too many doors. At that time, I couldn't find a job for six months, I was just applying everywhere that I could. Now keep in mind this entire time, I'm looking for a job. I'm listening to your podcast, and you know, how can I the income and the money to purchase some rental properties for some passive income? And one company responded to my resume for a mortgage company. So I was able to get an interview, and I actually got the job by quoting, you know, mortgage guidelines that I learned from your podcast. Your Podcast, such as, for an FHA loan, you need three and a half percent down. For a conventional you need 20% down, just the most basic of the most basic mortgage guidelines. And actually was able to land a job, and in the very beginning, they start you off pretty much. I mean, as a telemarketer, it's pretty rough, long hours, you work weekends, I was making $17.48 at the time per hour, and with that basic income, the 17.48 an hour, I actually was able to buy my first rental property without even the two years work history. And the way I did that was by using my college degree as work history, because there is actually a guideline to where, if you have degree that is in the same field as where you work, it does actually be counting work history. And it was really funny at the time, I was living with my parents, another document that I needed to go through underwriting. I needed a letter from my dad, a signed letter from my dad saying I didn't pay rent because I was living at home. And off that 17.48, an hour, I was able to buy my first rental property. And from mid south home buyers, everyone there was so great. They were so helpful in helping me through the loan process, through selecting a property, and I was able to close. And the time that I bought my first rental I was only 22 years old.

Keith Weinhold 14:20

This is remarkable on a few levels, with just those few lines, about three and a half percent down FHA or 20% down conventional that sounded compelling enough for someone to want to give you an opportunity and then off that modest starting wage, how that really helped you accumulate to buy income property and yeah, when you're buying in those investor advantage places, those prices are low, but that's still pretty remarkable that you were able to do that. So talk to us some more about that, buying your first rental property at age 22 surely younger than most people about that process and the mindset and really that leap of faith that it takes Josh because most people are not doing this.

Josh Fang 15:00

Yeah, absolutely. And I think I had a really big leg up in terms of mindset, because I was starting to listen to your podcast when I was so young, when you're young and you're growing up and you're a young adult in college, you know, you hear from your teachers, your parents, your friends, older people, and they say, oh, invest in the stock market. Buy a primary residence to live in. And the big thing that I learned is I don't live in the same world as the world that my parents grew up in, and I can't invest the same as well. Great point there's, I live in Southern California. The medium house price of where I live in, in the city of Irvine, is $2 million yeah, that's ridiculous. I would never, ever be able to purchase a primary residence out here, and buying stocks are at all times highs. I mean, that's arguable, but I think stocks are quite overfit. So investing there didn't make too much sense. And what you always talked about in terms of building a second flow of income, having that be passive to where I don't need to work regularly, is what really motivated me to move towards that. And in terms of making the first step, I think the most important thing by far, is just setting a goal, saying at least for myself, it was, hey, I want to own a property. I want to provide safe, affordable housing to a tenant, and I want to be able to make money off of that, to where I don't need to do something physically for it every single day. And then after that, it just about taking the steps. The first things first is I reached out to some of the house providers. In that case, it was mid south home buyers, gave them a call, spoke to them, say, Hey, can I please be put on your list? Perfect. Then it was just continuing the work, doing more research, continue listening to your podcast, learn tidbits here and there, lots of Googling, lots of Googling, looking up terms that I didn't understand when I read through the analysis of the property. Hey, what does this mean? What does that mean, Googling it, learning one step at a time. And then when it came time and I was actually receiving properties that I could buy, it was about getting the mortgage, and it was about, hey, let's just move one step at a time. Okay, today I need to get these documents, and the next step, I need to get these documents. And before you knew it, I was signing with a notary closing on my first property,

Keith Weinhold 17:10

the autodidactic approach, meaning the self taught approach, with some assistance from my show. But yeah, oftentimes listening to the show can be the stimulus to make you want to learn more, probably, because I talk about the why for real estate, and if you don't know your why, you won't care about how So Josh, are you doing something that some people do in high cost areas, like you live in in SoCal? Are you renting your own place? And then you provide rental housing to others outside your own area. In investor advantage places is that your setup?

Josh Fang 17:44

100% where I live in Irvine, it is extremely, extremely low crime. Everything's a planned unit development. It is beautiful out here. There's trees, there's lots of different foods from different cultures. I absolutely love living here. The only issue is is it's ridiculously expensive. I live in a very nice luxury apartment complex, and I pay of extremely high rent that normal people probably wouldn't be able to pay. But rather than coming out of my pocket, I use the cash flow for my rentals to pay for my rent over here. So it's kind of like I'm building equity, even though I'm just renting, and I get to live the life that I want to live, where I want to live it, while still being able to invest the proper way. In my opinion

Keith Weinhold 18:26

that's beautifully said and well thought out. And part of doing that, Josh is this borrowing money, which I think to lay people, is scary, and for someone in their 20s to borrow money, that could really bring a good bit of trepidation, because that goes against the grain of what so many people do. But of course, we talk around here about how borrowing money like you have for your rental properties in other states outside California really is not something to fear. So can you tell us more about how you approach that mindset?

Josh Fang 18:57

Absolutely, and it's always hilarious when someone asks you if you if you have any debt, and you tell them $500,000 when you're 23,24 years old, the biggest thing about borrowing money is now, again, there's different types of debt. So I'm not saying, hey, go buy some expensive car that you're going to be backwards on in a few months. Don't get a bunch of credit card debts at 24% interest rates. I'm talking about debt from a with a collateral attached to it, such as a mortgage. The way I like to think about borrowing money is borrowing like a bank, because your money has value. Whenever I have money in the actual bank, it doesn't feel like it, but I'm actually lending money to the bank. They're taking the money that I have deposited and lending it out to other people at higher rate than what they're paying you back. That's how they're actually making the money. I'm thinking like a bank. And of course, that's exactly how it is with borrowing money for rental properties. The interest rate that I have to pay on my mortgage is so much lower than how much income I'm receiving by actually renting it out and providing housing for someone. And then, of course. Tax deductions.

Keith Weinhold 20:00

Sure you're creating arbitrage there when it comes to paying off or aggressively paying down a property. I mean, some protection financially is surely good, but one has to realize that after some point, when you protect you cannot produce another way to say it is if you use your dollar to pay down, then you cannot use your dollar to multiply.

Josh Fang 20:25

I agree with that 100% I couldn't have said it any better.

Keith Weinhold 20:28

You really took action something that a lot of people don't do. I don't think you did right away. You listened to some episodes for quite a while, but you did overcome analysis paralysis at some point. So talk to us about more with that mindset of how you took the first step, even when you're still perhaps a little unsure.

Josh Fang 20:46

I think you say it best, and I know I'm literally taking the words out of your mouth, because, again, I'm a long time listener, but do the right thing before you do things right. Yes, rings so, so, so true. You're never going to be perfect. There's never going to be the perfect property. There's never going to be the perfect deal. Eventually you just have to do it. And again, all it really is is saying, Hey, here's what I want to do, and what are the steps that have to take to get there? If the first actual step, rather than just listening to the podcast or getting more information, if the first step is, hey, I want to get a pre approval. Go ahead and get it done. Reach out to a loan officer, get your pre approval, get the documents needed, get the right information that you need, and then start writing offers on properties, or contacting Keith and his team, their GRE mentoring team, and ask for property values. And once you find one, and again, you're never going to find the perfect property. Once you finally say, hey, this fits enough. Jump on it. You should be excited. I mean, again, once you're doing the right thing, you can learn to do things right. And slowly, kind of say, Hey, I made a small error there. Hey, I made a small error there. But at the end of the day, you move forward and you're ahead of where you started. I think that's the most important thing.

Keith Weinhold 21:59

Yeah. I think uncertainty stops. Some people, maybe even uncertainty with the larger economy. Or maybe people just look for excuses for inactivity. Sometimes there will always be some uncertainty out there. And what you do when you make an offer on a real asset is you just made some certainty in your life. Yeah, just talk to us more about the process of kind of you started with your first property and then growing that portfolio. And what did you learn between the first one in that second, third, fourth and fifth one, where you are now

Speaker 2 22:32

after buying my first one, when I received that first rent check, after that first rental property, my net cash flow after management expenses, putting a little, you know, VIMTIM, keeping an extra 10% away to just keep in the bank in case something came up. I wish cash flowing at the time. $231 doesn't sound like a crazy amount now, but as a 22 year old kid and saying, Hey, I got this $231 without lifting a finger, felt amazing. I had this feeling, I'm out in Southern California. We had this burger chain called in and out. My double double burger and fries combo was about $6 at the time. And I said, no matter how bad things get, no matter how bad things get, that $231 I can buy an in and out meal every single day, as long as I own that property. I just had such an overwhelming feeling of, when can I get the next one? I immediately, immediately reached out to MidSouth like, hey, put me on the list as soon as I have money. You know what? Keith, it got fun. It got fun every time I got an email saying, Hey, here's another property. Like, wow, if I can make this deal work, that's an extra couple $100 I can have at the end of the month every single day. And now I live in my own apartment complex, in a unit in an apartment complex, but at the time, I rented out a room in a house, in a condo, just a single room, and by the time I bought my second rental property, all of my cash flow from my two rentals actually covered the full amount of my monthly rent living out outside of my parents place. And that just felt so so so amazing, because it was like I almost had no overhead. So all the money that I was making for my job was completely disposable that I could use to purchase other rental properties. And that was just such an amazing, freeing feeling to know that no matter what happened, I obviously as long as there's no vacancies or any kind of crazy issues there, that I would still have that flow of income coming in pretty much after buying my first one, all I wanted to do was buy more. Now, a big issue that happened was 2020 and 2021 there was very little inventory, so really tough and slim pickings, and I would have bought a lot more if I could find more deals. And now, thinking back, I should have, if anything, I wish I bought more.

Keith Weinhold 24:50

Gosh, I just love that Josh, that seminal $231cash flow from that first property, and how you rationalize that that could buy you in and out. Meal every single day, all month. If that's what you wanted to do with that first one, that's terrific. And yes, markets change. There's more inventory available now than there was in 2020, and 2021, mortgage rates are surely higher. You don't have as much competition. You might even get a concession or two when you buy since it's a more balanced market today than it was about four years ago, for sure. So every market cycle is different. When you realize you're paid five ways at the same time, there's always one side to play or the other. There's always so many variables that you get to deal with there. Have you had any certain issues with property management, or do you have any mindset about using a property manager remotely. I assume you're using remote management for these turnkey type properties. Is that right?

100% I've actually never physically seen any of my properties. Yeah, what you say is the best, essentially, your team that manages your property is the most important by far. Right? Right now, here's the thing, issues are going to come up. Regardless of what happens. There's always going to be something that breaks. Eventually, there's always going to be vacancy. Eventually there can be natural disasters, something's always going to come up. And the thing is, you can't get angry about the things that you can't control. If there is a vacancy that you know you vetted the tenant properly, and there was nothing to do if there is a natural disaster or if something does break down in your property that you couldn't have expected coming or that wasn't your fault. The biggest thing is, you can't get angry with it. You just have to know that you can deal with it properly, and having a professional team on the other side saying, Hey, we're going to handle it. This is an issue. Here's how much it's going to cost. We got a couple of you know quotes. Please approve one when you get a chance, and knowing that the other side will be able to execute on that and to do it for you, and that you don't have to fly out wherever you own your property and do it yourself physically, or have to call around and find a contractor to do it, it's a huge peace of mind, and having a property manager and a team that you can trust just makes it work. If I couldn't get a property manager that I trusted, I wouldn't own the property in the first place. It's just too much work.

I am the same way. I also have not seen the majority of the properties I own. I've never seen them physically, in person, yeah, having a professional property manager, they provide a buffer, and they help keep this investment unemotional for you. And Mistakes happen when people get overly emotional about their properties. Some people are reluctant to hire a property manager, Josh because they don't want to pay the eight to 10% property management fee, which can actually be a little bit more than that effectively with leasing fees. But people feel that way, as oftentimes they're confining and limiting their search to their own local market, which probably isn't investor advantage. So they don't have enough of a cushion in their pro forma, in their profit and loss statement to pay for a property manager. But when you buy in those investor advantage places where you get that high ratio of rent income to purchase price. There you have the allowance to pay for the manager too,

Speaker 2 28:06

100% and luckily, because I have my foundation of real estate from listen to your podcast, I never even look at a deal without factoring in the fact that there will be management. I have never, ever even possibly considered self managing. It just makes no sense. I'd rather, let's just say it's 10% and a month's worth of lease, which is a little bit on the higher end in terms of management fees, right? Even if I were to do I would factor that in 100% of the time if the deal doesn't work, if it doesn't cash flow, if it doesn't, you know, appreciate a certain amount, if it isn't in my ballpark, with the management fees taken out, that's not even the deal that I'm looking at. It's just too expensive.

Keith Weinhold 28:47

Yeah, that's a great way to think about it, keep it unemotional and make it all relatively passive. I self managed for the first six or seven years of my real estate investing career, but that's because I was only investing in my own local market, and I was thinking small, and I didn't learn about finding the best investor advantaged places nationwide. Well, just as we wind down here, is there any last thing that you'd like to let the audience know or to tell us, I know before we recorded, you had talked about how really, your Daydream is more realistic than you think, and the motivation behind getting started. What do you want to leave with? Josh?

Speaker 2 29:22

You say it after every podcast. Don't quit your Daydream. I've been hearing that for eight years now at this point, and it really is, I don't have a day job. I pretty much only work when I feel like it. The majority of what I've lived off of is the income properties that I've bought and the lifestyle that I've crafted. It's so freeing. No one's telling you what to do. You don't have to go somewhere every day. You can spend time doing what you want. When I first quit my day job, and, you know, went into this semi retirement, I'm not gonna lie, I play video games eight hours a day for months, or maybe a month or two. I don't know if that's the most productive. It. But the fact that I could do that, I could obsess on crazy hobbies for a while was crazy. But one of the most important things to me of being able to reach this point in my life is I'm starting to get a little bit older. I am able to spend time with my family. I am able to spend time with my grandparents, and, you know, just like on a Tuesday or like on a Wednesday, just when nothing's really going on. Just being able to stop by and say hi to my family and spend time with them is something that I'm so blessed to be able to have, and not many people can do. And then the last thing I'd like to say on that is just, there's very small things in the world that a lot of people don't get a notice. Because I feel like everyone's in a rush all the time, and a lot of people are. You know, if you're working 40 hours a week, nine to five, you know, nine to six, there's not much time. But the other day, I was taking a small hike, and I saw a group of lizards. I thought they were cool, so I looked at the lizards. I spent maybe 15 minutes watching the lizards. I wasn't in a rush, you know, I could just enjoy the small things in life, and that's one of the best things in the world to just have that sense of not being in a rush. And I feel like investing in real estate and having that passive income and having that level of freedom. To me, that's what my Daydream is. There's nothing better to me.

Keith Weinhold 31:14

the simple pleasures about not having your time so confined that you could enjoy looking at lizards for 15 minutes. I love the small stuff like that. And does this mean Josh? I mean with five rental properties that you only need to work part time rather than full time, because usually five properties don't allow someone to completely leave the workforce.

Josh Fang 31:32

No, not at all. I definitely do things on the side. I still do loans for friends and family. I do some other stuff on the side, but it's more of that my basic needs are met for the most part.

Keith Weinhold 31:43

That's terrific. You've got more latitude to live and having a life of options Trumps having a life of obligations 100% Well, hey, it's been great hearing your story. Josh, loved having you here on the show you're listening to get rich education. We got to know listener. Guest, Josh Fang more, and we come back with another listener guest, profile, I'm your host, Keith Weinhold.

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Jim Rickards 33:49

this is Arthur Jim Rickards. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 34:05

our next listener guest has an uncanny amount of similarities with me, like me, he was a geography major in college. He had humble beginnings in upstate New York, not far from where I grew up, in upstate Pennsylvania. He's a huge believer in real estate pays five ways, and he loves world travel. His first job out of college was, in fact, traveling the world, playing basketball against the Harlem Globetrotters. We sure don't have that pro basketball part in common. He owns dozens of units across seven states today. He's listened to GRE for six or seven years, and he was a corporate guy living in California who thought the book Rich Dad, Poor Dad was fiction, until he experienced the rapid appreciation of he and his wife's first primary residence. And after that appreciation, he knew he had to acquire more real estate. Prices were too high in California relative to rent, so he. Went out of state, and he had just one property for five years to learn that was pretty similar to me as well. And then he saw tremendous opportunity after the GFC hit in 2008 and that really put him on a path through experience the five ways real estate pays over time, and he became convinced that there's not a better risk adjusted business model that's easily accessible to the average person. Hey, welcome to GRE Nate O'Neil

Nate O'Neil 35:25

Keith, it's great to be here. I've been, as you mentioned, a long time. Listener. Really appreciate the content that you put out, and excited to be on the show

Keith Weinhold 35:32

and you're no longer playing like zero defense basketball against the Harlem Globetrotters. You work in the solar industry now. I know that you sell to single family rental REITs. That's really interesting. And one thing that real estate investing lets people do is think differently about their w2 jobs. So tell us about how that manifests with you. Nate,

Nate O'Neil 35:56

growing up, you know, the first 25 years of my life, 24 years or so, my identity was wrapped up as an athlete, and, you know, something I could really get excited about eventually, that had to come to an end, and started working in the corporate world. So did that for a little while, and got going. It really, you know, didn't resonate with me that much. But, you know, I had a wife, and I had some kids on the way, so had to keep grinding it out. And, you know, as I did that, I discovered real estate, and what really helped me with that was I saw the corporate world began to be a vehicle to grow my real estate portfolio, right? Instead of it being the desk jockey in the cubicle, my corporate job was okay, this is the way for me to raise capital and get the best loans to build a real estate portfolio so, and it's ironic, because as that kind of evolved, I gained, you know, more appreciation for the corporate job, and it didn't, it wasn't so burdensome. And I know there's probably a lot of people out there right that feel that way about their job, but you can probably do a mindset shift and say, hey, you know, this can serve me in other ways and it not be such a grind.

Keith Weinhold 37:03

That's a great way to think about it. While you have that job, it sure is an asset in helping you qualify for loans. Right before I quit my job, I made sure I qualified for as many loans as I could, because I sure would have had a hard time getting them immediately after leaving my job, before I built income or build up passively from something else. It's funny, when you're in the corporate world, you're in this context of normalcy. So many people that you know are working. You're around your coworkers all day. They're working, and if it's something you're not passionate about, yeah, you still don't question it, because it takes on that context for normalcy. But once you leave your job, it feels bizarre that anyone would ever show up and spend five of their seven days and most of the waking hours of those days doing something that they're not passionate about. Now maybe you are passionate about what you do. That's where the mindset that I think through there, but that's a good way to help a person feel a little bit better showing up at their job, even if it is a soul sucking job. Nate. So talk to us about this more with this sort of power of purpose that you had, and when you are working your day job, you probably do some living below your means in the short term, but a lot of people just do that decade after decade and grind it out. So how do you think about that with the mindset in this sort of capital formation stage, in order to acquire more property while you're working?

Nate O'Neil 38:29

Like I said, it was an opportunity that the job became an opportunity to fuel the real estate business, which, as you mentioned, I saw that opportunity in 2009 right when prices were low, when interest rates were low, when there was a bunch of nice new foreclosures on the market, I saw the it created a sense of urgency in me, right? So I was like, All right, let's go to work, because the work's going to drive that capital, and the capital is going to allow us to acquire more and more of this real estate, which is, again, something I was passionate about, because we had this just that one rental for that five year period, I saw the power of what it can do over the long term. And when you have that purpose and that clarity, then all the minor stuff that you can get wrapped around and can kind of slow you down, really doesn't matter you have that big vision and that big goal that you're going after that really kind of drives you

Keith Weinhold 39:20

now, before we got started today, I learned that you have a few ways of thinking about how real estate investors can have their cake and eat it too, more tactically. Here tell us about that. And of course, what is the point of having cake if you can't eat it?

Nate O'Neil 39:33

Yeah, for sure, worked in some different industries and some different companies, and seen a lot of different business models. I've never found anything where you can have kind of both sides of the cookie here, or hack cake eat it too. You can depreciate an appreciating asset. The government allows you to depreciate homes, right? Which gives you a nice tax benefit. The money that I make that my corporate job is taxed at a much higher rate than my real estate income, but yet the asset actually appreciates. Dollars. So you depreciate an appreciating asset. I think people underestimate the power of the 30 year mortgage, right? You can lock in an interest rate today for 30 years, and if interest rates go up, you did a great job. You locked in a great, great rate. If interest rates go down, you're a champion. If you just refinance, when you do a 30 year fixed rate mortgage, the lender is committing to you for three decades, but you don't have to commit to them. So again, have your cake and eat it, too. And then you know the whole return on amortization that you talk about, Keith, yeah, when you get to borrow money that you don't have to pay back, in essence, right? The resident that's in your home is paying that money back. So people think about they hate getting bills in the mail. I actually love getting my mortgage statements in the mail. Every month I go through this little ritual, I look at it, and my process is, wow, how much was that principle paid down? Right? I didn't pay it back, right? The rent payment paid it back. So what other scenario can you borrow money that, quote, unquote, someone else is paying back on your behalf,

Keith Weinhold 41:02

that ROA, that return on amortization, also known as principal pay down. Where, yes, you get that statement every month, and you get to see how much a stranger paid down for your property. It's basically a stranger every month is faithfully funding an illiquid savings account for you,

Speaker 3 41:22

it's just incredible. And then the final way I kind of think about having your cake and eating it too, is, is this HELOC strategy. So over time, as you build equity in your portfolio, you can take out a home equity line of credit, right? And the beauty of a line of credit is you open it up and you don't have to make any payments if you don't use the money. But when there's an opportunity, you can pound for that opportunity. And this is what we did in 2020 and 2021 we acquired some new construction fourplexes with HELOCs. And when in using the HELOC strategy, you're able to use every single dollar to keep the balance low. And what it does is it creates this virtuous cycle of increasing cash flow, because it's a line of credit, and you pay off against that, that line of credit, if you need the money back for an emergency, or if a better opportunity comes up, then you basically just pull more off that line of credit. But if you don't have that opportunity of that emergency, then your money is fully working to keep that payment low, which increases your cash flow, and again, it creates that virtuous cycle of of increasing cash flow, which you can use to pay down the HELOC. Even more

Keith Weinhold 42:29

I see no downsides to getting a HELOC to getting a line of credit against your existing primary residence or your rental properties, whatever they are. It's like this flexible credit card where you're drawing on it with your property as collateral, and it's at lower interest rates than a credit card is going to be. And you also have interest only flexibility, meaning even if you draw against it, and you do have a balance and you need to make a payment, therefore you can pay as little as only the interest portion if you want to. In fact, when I bought my first fourplex in order to fund my second fourplex, I took a HELOC second mortgage off of that first one. Love the HELOC really can't think of any downsides with at least having it there. And then it's up to you as to whether you want to draw against it or not. Absolutely talk to us more about you're another out of state investor based in high cost California. There. It sounds unusual to lay people, but here we are as successful investors owning these properties, typically that we have never seen out of state. Are you in that category as well? And talk to us more about the out of state investing experience

Speaker 3 43:40

I've only ever seen one of the units that I own, the rental units that I own, and I actually think it's a huge advantage, because if you're seeing them driving by them all the time, there's probably little nits that you could point out, and, you know, you get some kind of emotional attachment to them. The way I look at it, it's two things. Number one, it's the spreadsheet behind it, right? What are the numbers behind it? What is my mortgage payment? Is there Hoa, taxes, insurance, all that stuff, and what is my rent? And obviously, I'm all about cash flow, so that rent payment has to cover all the expenses with a little extra. The second piece of it behind the spreadsheet is the person managing it right? And I've been very fortunate over my years of investing to find some really quality property managers who I know I can trust. So, you know, absolutely, I mean, developed an ability to hire the right people to manage the property, and they handle just about everything, and I just need to be there, available for them if they have questions for me or decisions I need to make. Fully trust them. I have only ever seen one of the units that I own, and you know, never really planned to go out and visit them.

Keith Weinhold 44:44

You do like to travel, but just not necessarily to your 200k turnkey single family home in the Midwest, in the south, not where you want to stay. There are some advantages and some disadvantages of owning rental properties, say, four blocks from your home. One of the distinct disadvantages is, yeah, you might get that emotional attachment to it. You might get bogged down in inconsequential things. You might drive by and see that the hedge needs a trim. How much of a problem is that really?

Nate O'Neil 45:14

Exactly it, as long as the spreadsheet behind it is spitting out the right numbers, and you have someone that you can trust that can handle anything that that's major, or any tenant issues that's all that's really relevant.

Keith Weinhold 45:26

Has our investment coaching helped inform you at all? Helped you find properties or give you inside information or access to deals or other support?

Nate O'Neil 45:35

Yeah, I have had a conversation with Naresh. One of your investment counselors doesn't, haven't necessarily acted upon that. But, you know, I can say over the, you know, six to seven years that I've been listening to your podcast just understanding kind of the macroeconomic guests that you bring on in the markets that we believe, you know, are good for investing. Like that, information has been extremely valuable to me over the years.

Keith Weinhold 45:57

Our coaches are really deal scouts here in today's market. For example, things are just so much different than they were during the 2008 GFC years. There are always deals in every cycle. You typically just need to shift and find out where those opportunities are. Are there any specific niches or opportunities that you're exploiting today in this particular cycle? Nate

Nate O'Neil 46:19

yeah. So it's really interesting, and I've been spoiled, right in terms of the times when I did a lot of my acquisition back in 2008 we knew it was good, but looking back, you realize just how good it was at that time, and frankly, now is very challenging, right? I mean, affordability is the worst that's been in 40 years. Yeah, right. So you have to be really creative. You know, one of the things that I did recently was I learned how to do a loan acquisition. So assuming a loan can be very helpful, right where you're not dealing with today's interest rates, you can get yesterday's interest rates on a property. So that's been one thing, and one thing I continue to look at. I also believe that I've been focused on single family in some four plexes. I'm looking at smaller multifamily because what I've learned is there's opportunity when there's debt disruption, right? The great financial crisis happened because there were atrocious lending standards leading up to that time, right? So that opened up a window of opportunity. That opportunity is closed. Acquired some fourplexes in 20 and 21 when interest rates were unbelievably low, right? Basically, the Fed funds rate was basically zero. That kind of unique debt situation allowed me to acquire there and now, right? Since 2022 interest rates spiked so quickly, the way I think about it is the debt disruption period, there's probably some acquisitions that happened with, you know, three to five year short term loans that are going to be coming due, and those acquisition are facing payments that are going to double. So there could be some motivated sellers, not in the single family right, where you have 30 year fixed rate or 15 year fixed rate, but in those small, multi family loans, where they have those short term variable rate debts. So that's kind of how I'm thinking right now.

Keith Weinhold 48:05

That's perceptive. It's something I brought up on the show a month or more ago where apartment buildings have got to bottom out at some point those being sensitive to those shorter term interest rates. Well, Nate, this has really been helpful. You've given our audience quite a few things to think about. Is there any last thing that you'd like the audience to know?

Speaker 3 48:25

We talked a little bit about purpose, like that's very important. There is no better way, in my opinion, to build wealth for the average person, no more predictable way risk adjusted, to build wealth for the average person. You know, for the listeners out there. It's great that you're consuming this content, and if you can find a purpose behind it, then it'll help. And the other thing is, get clarity, right? There's a lot of different things you can do within real estate investing, but get clarity on what works for you. And the way to do that, frankly, is just kind of sit and think, I think, you know, especially in today's day and age, there's so many stimulus coming at us, from social media to everything that there's a risk of not being able to get clear. One of the big things that helped me during that, that period of, you know, 2009 to 2015 when we started to scale, was I was very clear about what we wanted. I had a buy box that was, you know, homes built this millennium B grade neighborhoods, cash flowed $300 or more with no more than 25% down in markets with population growth, job growth and favorable rent to price ratios. And when I was able to communicate with the agents and property managers, I was very clear on what we wanted to do. They had clarity on what they needed to do to help us scale so purpose and clarity.

Keith Weinhold 49:41

That's great guidance a specific Buy Box. Yes, focus is harder to find, and it's really important today. It's amazing. Nate, how much work I get done when my phone is one room away, over on the charger. It's incredible how that works. Well, it's been good to get your insight, and it's been good to talk to a guy. That might know the capital of Argentina much like I know a fellow geography guy and real estate investor. Yeah. I really want to thank you for sharing your insight with the audience today.

Nate O'Neil 50:11

Nate, I hope it's valuable for you in the audience.

Keith Weinhold 50:20

Oh yeah, good, relatable material this week, the first guest, Josh, also talked about how he took out a low interest rate car loan. So he held onto those funds rather than handing them over to an auto dealer, stayed liquid and used it for income property, creating a yield for himself that beat the car loan interest rate pretty smart. And before you do that, you do want to be sure that you've got enough liquidity to serve as debt. And then Nate the second one, the more experienced investor, reminding us that deals are not as good as they were coming off the global financial crisis. And he's right, but I still don't know of a better risk adjusted return today, like me, they both use professional property management. I mean, you do have the option of self managing your property remotely that you get from GRE marketplace. But of all the things in the world that you can learn about, even all the things in real estate investing that you can learn about, is self managing really what you want to spend your finite resource of time learning about. Even if you've got good tenants, you're bringing more intrusion and interruption into your life. Property managers don't just protect your asset, they protect your time. Big thanks to GRE listeners, Josh Fang and Nate O'Neil today until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.

Speaker 4 51:50

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 52:14

You know, whenever you want the best written real estate and finance info, oh, geez, today's experience limits your free articles access, and it's got pay walls and pop ups and push notifications and cookies disclaimers. It's not so great. So then it's vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that adds no hype value to your life. That's why this is the golden age of quality newsletters. And I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point because even the word abbreviation is too long, my letter usually takes less than three minutes to read, and when you start the letter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate video. Course, it's all completely free. It's called the Don't quit your Daydream letter. It wires your mind for wealth, and it couldn't be easier for you to get it right now. Just text gre to 66866, while it's on your mind, take a moment to do it right now. Text, gre to 66866

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