Hands-on Selling with Kevin Brown of Friction Labs

Hey Sue

Welcome to the first episode of a special new focus for the HeySue Podcast: the Never Ask for the Sale Series. These new episodes are inspired by the September 2025 launch of Sue Heilbronner’s newest book, Never Ask for the Sale: Supercharge Your Business with the Power of Passionate Ambivalence. Never Ask is based on the philosophy or sales technique Sue calls “passionate ambivalence,” the freedom to be as passionate as you are about a possible sale and equally unattached to whether you close any specific business. Sue argues in Never Ask that executing on this mindset will propel the success of solopreneurs, startup founders, service providers, company account executives, and anyone who is selling or influencing in a context that depends primarily on themself. The Never Ask series will focus on sellers, founders and CEOs Sue believes exhibit features of passionate ambivalence in their approach to selling and growing their companies. Kevin Brown left corporate America and cofounded (with Keah Kalantari) a sports chalk company called Friction Labs a decade ago. There is a lot of talk these days about category creation. Friction Labs didn’t create the category of chalk for, say, rock climbing, but it did create the notion that professional and amateur climbers alike could have better climbing chalk. Friction Labs took a generic category and made it differentiated through pure innovation in both the product, branding, and positioning. In the pod, Kevin talks about how he started this journey, by offering a risk-free way for influential climbers to literally get their hands on Friction Labs chalk. It worked. Climbers loved the product, and sponsored athletes quickly led to a major full-chain rollout of the product line at REI followed by a number of global retailers. A key to the company’s growth is Kevin’s full alignment between this product category and his love of climbing (Kevin is a serious climber and bouldering club owner). He is as passionate an entrepreneur as I’ve ever met. His ambivalence shows up in the money-back guarantee he has used since Day 1. He has told climbers, gymnasts, golfers, tennis players, and major retailers that if they don’t like the product, or if the product doesn’t sell, he will offer a full no-questions-asked refund. He’s had to do this almost not at all. If you love sports. If you love sweating outside. If you love from-the-heart selling, you’ll love this episode, here and on YouTube. You can order Never Ask for the Sale at www.heysue.com/preorder. Get chalked for your next sweaty adventure at www.frictionlabs.com. You can see this and future episodes of the HeySue podcast on YouTube at www.youtube.com/sueheilbronner