Alessandro Bogliari, CEO and Co-Founder of The Influencer Marketing Factory, a global influencer marketing agency, talks with great guests about influencer marketing, social media, the creator economy, social commerce and much more.
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Kylie Ridler-Dutton And Darren Chat About Getting The Pitch Basics Right
Manage episode 418166225 series 1048218
Content provided by TrinityP3. All podcast content including episodes, graphics, and podcast descriptions are uploaded and provided directly by TrinityP3 or their podcast platform partner. If you believe someone is using your copyrighted work without your permission, you can follow the process outlined here https://ppacc.player.fm/legal.
Kylie Ridler-Dutton, a senior consultant at TrinityP3, is responsible for managing and facilitating some of the most high-profile creative pitches in this country over the past decade and is here to discuss the implications for any marketer managing their own pitches.
Since the pandemic, agencies worldwide have been increasingly vocal about ditching the pitch, and trade media have run headlines and opinion pieces claiming it is broken and even dead.
As Australia’s and APAC’s leading pitch consultancy, we noticed that while there were plenty of opinions, there was very little data on this topic, so we undertook our own research called The State of the Pitch in Australia. One of the key findings is that many marketers and procurement teams are simply not getting the basics right. Kylie shares her experience and observations on why this is so.
You can download your copy of the State of the Pitch Australia Report for free at www.trinityp3.com/state-of-the-pitch/
Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/managing-marketing/id1018735190
Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW?si=a3b63c66ab6e4934
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Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/managing-marketing
Listen on Podbean: https://managingmarketing.podbean.com/
For more episodes of TrinityP3’s Managing Marketing podcast, visit https://www.trinityp3.com/managing-marketing-podcasts/
Recorded on RiversideFM and edited, mixed and managed by JML Audio with thanks to Jared Lattouf.
385 episodes
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Manage episode 418166225 series 1048218
Content provided by TrinityP3. All podcast content including episodes, graphics, and podcast descriptions are uploaded and provided directly by TrinityP3 or their podcast platform partner. If you believe someone is using your copyrighted work without your permission, you can follow the process outlined here https://ppacc.player.fm/legal.
Kylie Ridler-Dutton, a senior consultant at TrinityP3, is responsible for managing and facilitating some of the most high-profile creative pitches in this country over the past decade and is here to discuss the implications for any marketer managing their own pitches.
Since the pandemic, agencies worldwide have been increasingly vocal about ditching the pitch, and trade media have run headlines and opinion pieces claiming it is broken and even dead.
As Australia’s and APAC’s leading pitch consultancy, we noticed that while there were plenty of opinions, there was very little data on this topic, so we undertook our own research called The State of the Pitch in Australia. One of the key findings is that many marketers and procurement teams are simply not getting the basics right. Kylie shares her experience and observations on why this is so.
You can download your copy of the State of the Pitch Australia Report for free at www.trinityp3.com/state-of-the-pitch/
Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/managing-marketing/id1018735190
Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW?si=a3b63c66ab6e4934
Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zb3VuZGNsb3VkLmNvbS91c2Vycy9zb3VuZGNsb3VkOnVzZXJzOjE2MTQ0MjA2NC9zb3VuZHMucnNz
Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/managing-marketing
Listen on Podbean: https://managingmarketing.podbean.com/
For more episodes of TrinityP3’s Managing Marketing podcast, visit https://www.trinityp3.com/managing-marketing-podcasts/
Recorded on RiversideFM and edited, mixed and managed by JML Audio with thanks to Jared Lattouf.
385 episodes
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1 Chloe Hooper And Ellie Talk About Putting Values In Action By Bridging Purpose And Practice 59:14
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Play Later Play Later Lists Like LikedChloe Hooper, founder and CEO of Barefeet Consultancy discusses the importance of redefining business purpose and values, the journey of self-belief, and the significance of authenticity in both personal and professional realms. Chloe shares her transition from the agency landscape to consultancy, emphasizing the need for organizations to truly embody their values and the challenges of self-doubt that many face, particularly women in leadership roles. The conversation highlights the interconnectedness of personal growth and professional success, advocating for a culture of accountability and radical candor in the workplace. Chloe shares insights from her podcast, 'Limitless Equation,' which aims to inspire women by showcasing their superpowers and encouraging self-advocacy and touches on leadership, the significance of assertiveness in professional settings, and the need for diversity and understanding within teams. Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/managing-marketing/id1018735190 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW?si=a3b63c66ab6e4934 Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/managing-marketing Listen on Podbean: https://managingmarketing.podbean.com/ For more episodes of TrinityP3’s Managing Marketing podcast, visit https://www.trinityp3.com/managing-marketing-podcasts/ Recorded on RiversideFM and edited, mixed and managed by JML Audio with thanks to Jared Lattouf.…
1 Hilary Badger And Ellie Talk About The Life and Love of Creativity 42:41
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Play Later Play Later Lists Like LikedHilary Badger is the ECD at Leo Burnett Australia. Hilary and Ellie go on a conversational journey that takes in female creative leadership; our creative loves and pet peeves; the importance of diversity in marketing; the existential threat to our industry; our love of true creativity and why it should endure; the best use of AI to ensure that humans remain in the industry; and what clients and agencies need to do to keep the creative flame burning. Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/managing-marketing/id1018735190 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW?si=a3b63c66ab6e4934 Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/managing-marketing Listen on Podbean: https://managingmarketing.podbean.com/ For more episodes of TrinityP3’s Managing Marketing podcast, visit https://www.trinityp3.com/managing-marketing-podcasts/ Recorded live on Zoom and edited, mixed and managed by JML Audio with thanks to Jared Lattouf.…
1 Darren O’Meara, Troy Graham And Darren Talk About The Growing Influence Of Experiences 53:10
53:10 Play Later Play Later Lists Like Liked53:10
Play Later Play Later Lists Like LikedDarren O’Meara, Growth Director, and Troy Graham, Group Creative Director, experience marketing agency GPJ, also known as George P Johnson, share the state of play in the experience marketing industry. They explore how brands are shifting from traditional advertising to creating immersive experiences that engage customers on a deeper level. The conversation highlights the importance of memory-making, the value exchange in brand experiences, and the need for ongoing engagement post-event. They also discuss the role of technology in enhancing experiences and the challenges of measuring success in this dynamic field. Ultimately, the episode emphasizes the necessity of choosing the right partners and strategies to effectively leverage experience marketing and delves into the intricacies of experiential marketing, emphasizing the importance of creating engaging brand experiences, understanding client expectations, and the role of specialization in marketing. Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/managing-marketing/id1018735190 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW?si=a3b63c66ab6e4934 Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/managing-marketing Listen on Podbean: https://managingmarketing.podbean.com/ For more episodes of TrinityP3’s Managing Marketing podcast, visit https://www.trinityp3.com/managing-marketing-podcasts/ Recorded on RiversideFM and edited, mixed and managed by JML Audio with thanks to Jared Lattouf.…
1 Kylie, Nick, Nathan, Stephen And Darren On The State Of The Pitch Research 2 52:20
52:20 Play Later Play Later Lists Like Liked52:20
Play Later Play Later Lists Like LikedIn response to an increasingly vocal call from agencies around the world to ditch the pitch and trade media running headlines and opinion pieces claiming the pitch is broken and even dead, we launched The State of the Pitch Research in Australia in 2023. The second round of the State of the Pitch research was run in Australia between June and December last year. The report makes interesting reading on what is going on and what is going wrong with pitching and what, if anything, is improving or getting worse. Today, TrinityP3 consultants, Kylie Ridler-Dutton, Nathan Hodges, Nick Hand and Stephen Wright share their thoughts and insights on the State of the Pitch Australia research. Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/managing-marketing/id1018735190 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW?si=a3b63c66ab6e4934 Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/managing-marketing Listen on Podbean: https://managingmarketing.podbean.com/ For more episodes of TrinityP3’s Managing Marketing podcast, visit https://www.trinityp3.com/managing-marketing-podcasts/ Recorded on RiversideFM and edited, mixed and managed by JML Audio with thanks to Jared Lattouf.…
1 Harry Lowes And Anton Chat Creative Connection Is The New Targeting In An AI Fuelled World 40:07
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Play Later Play Later Lists Like LikedHarry Lowes is the Director, ANZ Mid-Market, in the Global Business Group at Meta. After long stints at CommBank and Telstra in Australia and based in Singapore with Meta for the past 6 years, Harry discusses with Anton the big changes and exciting opportunities for marketers in an AI-fuelled landscape: speed and customisation at scale, better measurement techniques, and the evolving experiences with wearables. Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/managing-marketing/id1018735190 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW?si=a3b63c66ab6e4934 Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/managing-marketing Listen on Podbean: https://managingmarketing.podbean.com/ For more episodes of TrinityP3’s Managing Marketing podcast, visit https://www.trinityp3.com/managing-marketing-podcasts/ Recorded on RiversideFM and edited, mixed and managed by JML Audio with thanks to Jared Lattouf.…
1 Leandro Perez And Anton Discuss Augmenting The Digital And Human Labour Forces For The Future 55:56
55:56 Play Later Play Later Lists Like Liked55:56
Play Later Play Later Lists Like LikedLeandro Perez, Senior Vice President and CMO of Salesforce ANZ, has recently joined the board of the AANA and has been at Salesforce for over 10 years including the role of VP Corporate Messaging and Content. He talks with Anton about how humans are now working with AI agents to deliver better business, brand and customer experiences, and touches on some new ways of measuring quality and success, as well as reinforcing how critical it is to bring the marketing fundamentals to the fore rather than get lost in the tech. Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/managing-marketing/id1018735190 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW?si=a3b63c66ab6e4934 Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/managing-marketing Listen on Podbean: https://managingmarketing.podbean.com/ For more episodes of TrinityP3’s Managing Marketing podcast, visit https://www.trinityp3.com/managing-marketing-podcasts/ Recorded on RiversideFM and edited, mixed and managed by JML Audio with thanks to Jared Lattouf.…
1 Dr Kate Gunby, Anton Buchner, Adrian Treahy And Darren Discuss Navigating The Complexity Of The Marketing Technology Swamp 54:07
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Play Later Play Later Lists Like LikedThree guests join to help navigate the marketing technological swamp, from TrinityP3, Dr Kate Gunby, Senior Consultant, Anton Buchner, Business Director and Adrian Treahy, Senior Consultant. There is no denying that technology continues to significantly disrupt business and particularly marketing, media and advertising. The explosion of digital advertising platforms, the rise of e-commerce, programmatic advertising, the associated big data and now artificial intelligence are all providing challenges and opportunities to marketers in an increasingly complex world. We discuss how can marketers and their agencies navigate this complexity and what are the emerging practices we see to address the increasing demands and expectations being placed on marketers. Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/managing-marketing/id1018735190 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW?si=a3b63c66ab6e4934 Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/managing-marketing Listen on Podbean: https://managingmarketing.podbean.com/ For more episodes of TrinityP3’s Managing Marketing podcast, visit https://www.trinityp3.com/managing-marketing-podcasts/ Recorded on RiversideFM and edited, mixed and managed by JML Audio with thanks to Jared Lattouf.…
1 June Cheung And Darren Discuss AI And Scope 3 Implications For Media And Advertising 46:08
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Play Later Play Later Lists Like LikedJune Cheung is head of JAPAC at Scope 3, Public Benefit Corporation that focuses on decarbonizing media and advertising by providing a platform to visualize, measure, and reduce carbon emissions across the advertising ecosystem. But it is more than that. June shares the evolution of Scope3 from its foundation in 2022 with the aim to help the advertising industry reduce its carbon footprint, to facilitating the creation of an agreed measurement model for the industry tobuilding and sharing emission reduction solutions to today with the recent announcement of the creation of an agentic AI platform to help partners build and sell AI-enabled media products that are efficient and sustainable by design. Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/managing-marketing/id1018735190 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW?si=a3b63c66ab6e4934 Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/managing-marketing Listen on Podbean: https://managingmarketing.podbean.com/ For more episodes of TrinityP3’s Managing Marketing podcast, visit https://www.trinityp3.com/managing-marketing-podcasts/ Recorded live on Zoom and edited, mixed and managed by JML Audio with thanks to Jared Lattouf.…
1 Alex Myers And Darren Chat About Building The World’s First Global Small Agency 50:08
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Play Later Play Later Lists Like LikedAlex Myers is the Founder and CEO of Manifest Group, a leading B Corp certified brand communications agency with studios in London, Manchester, New York, Los Angeles, Stockholm and Melbourne. As an agency, Manifest is a driving force for better diversity, equality and inclusion in the creative industries which is powered by an all female managing partnership and creative director team globally. Alex is a vocal advocate for fusing creative disciplines to deliver fully ‘unified’ campaigns across paid, earned, social and owned media. Starting the business in 2009 from his living room, with no clients, colleagues, or connections, the agency has grown to become one of the most highly awarded creative independent networks worldwide, receiving hundreds of industry accolades. Here, he shares that experience and the insights and lessons he has learned along the way. Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/managing-marketing/id1018735190 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW?si=a3b63c66ab6e4934 Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/managing-marketing Listen on Podbean: https://managingmarketing.podbean.com/ For more episodes of TrinityP3’s Managing Marketing podcast, visit https://www.trinityp3.com/managing-marketing-podcasts/ Recorded live on Zoom and edited, mixed and managed by JML Audio with thanks to Jared Lattouf.…
1 Bonnie MacTavish, Ahmed Meer And Anton Discuss How To Successfully Humanise Technology 39:12
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Play Later Play Later Lists Like LikedBonnie MacTavish and Ahmed Meer, along with Christine Sultana, founded a Digital Product Studio called Nightjar. Bonnie and Ahmed talk about what guides their decision making in creating successful human connection with clients and for their customers when changing technology. The values, the clarity, the understanding of what to sacrifice, and how to achieve momentum. Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/managing-marketing/id1018735190 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW?si=a3b63c66ab6e4934 Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/managing-marketing Listen on Podbean: https://managingmarketing.podbean.com/ For more episodes of TrinityP3’s Managing Marketing podcast, visit https://www.trinityp3.com/managing-marketing-podcasts/ Recorded on RiversideFM and edited, mixed and managed by JML Audio with thanks to Jared Lattouf.…
1 Emma Logan And Darren Chat About The Challenges Facing Marketing Leaders 52:01
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Play Later Play Later Lists Like LikedEmma Logan is the founder and chief connections officer of the Emma Logan Project, which helps marketers stop blending in and start standing out. Emma has spent the past 14 years as an insider to the upper echelons of marketing and media leadership, holding senior roles in Australia, the UK, and New Zealand. Now, while there has never been a more exciting time to be a marketer, it is also one of the most challenging. Rapidly changing technology, fragmented media channels, and increased demands for accountability is impacting senior marketers. Operating under these tougher employment conditions and often unrealistic expectations, many marketers are choosing to stay safe, which is impacting behaviour. Emma discusses the challenges marketing leaders are facing and how they are adapting to this changing environment. Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/managing-marketing/id1018735190 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW?si=a3b63c66ab6e4934 Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/managing-marketing Listen on Podbean: https://managingmarketing.podbean.com/ For more episodes of TrinityP3’s Managing Marketing podcast, visit https://www.trinityp3.com/managing-marketing-podcasts/ Recorded live on Zoom and edited, mixed and managed by JML Audio with thanks to Jared Lattouf.…
1 Henry Innis And Ellie Chat About The Evolution And Explosion Of MMM 46:50
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Play Later Play Later Lists Like LikedHenry Innis is the co-founder and CEO of Mutinex. In a typically frank exchange of views, Henry and Ellie talk about the long evolution and more recent explosion of MMM; the strengths and weaknesses of modelling; the various challenges of making a modelling project sticky and meaningful; the art of pitching for MMM; the potential and complexity of the huge US market; working with MMM and agencies, and new technology horizons. Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/managing-marketing/id1018735190 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW?si=a3b63c66ab6e4934 Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/managing-marketing Listen on Podbean: https://managingmarketing.podbean.com/ For more episodes of TrinityP3’s Managing Marketing podcast, visit https://www.trinityp3.com/managing-marketing-podcasts/ Recorded live on Zoom and edited, mixed and managed by JML Audio with thanks to Jared Lattouf.…
1 Nick Hand And Darren Talk Agency Fee Models You Many Not Have Considered 49:01
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Play Later Play Later Lists Like LikedHere is a question: how many ways are there to pay your advertising agency? No, this is not a joke or a riddle. Although, the fact that the advertising industry considers itself a “creative” industry and the dominant way they are paid is still the same as labourers and unskilled workers (that is by the hour), is a joke. To discuss this issue and explore the many ways they can be paid, please welcome back to the Managing Marketing Podcast, the commercially savvy, hands-on Finance Director, a CPA with more than two decades of experience managing the finances of media, creative, PR agencies and more, Nick Hand. Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/managing-marketing/id1018735190 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW?si=a3b63c66ab6e4934 Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/managing-marketing Listen on Podbean: https://managingmarketing.podbean.com/ For more episodes of TrinityP3’s Managing Marketing podcast, visit https://www.trinityp3.com/managing-marketing-podcasts/ Recorded live on Zoom and edited, mixed and managed by JML Audio with thanks to Jared Lattouf.…
1 Damien Thomson And Darren Chat About The State Of Carbon Measurement In Advertising 51:50
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Play Later Play Later Lists Like LikedDamien Thomson is the CEO & Co-Founder of Net Zero Media, a purpose built technology to effectively measure and analyse the emissions associated with all media and marketing activity. While the President of the United States of America promises to “drill, baby, drill“ for oil and gas, the rest of the world is focusing on ways to transition to a sustainable energy model. However, when discussing how to minimise the impact of the climate crisis, much of the conversation focuses on industries such as transport, construction, energy, and the more obvious greenhouse gas emitters. The role media and advertising play is often overlooked. Yet advertising produces more GHG emissions than the aviation industry. Damien shares his perspective on the current and future state of carbon measurement in media and advertising and the role each of us must play. Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/managing-marketing/id1018735190 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW?si=a3b63c66ab6e4934 Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/managing-marketing Listen on Podbean: https://managingmarketing.podbean.com/ For more episodes of TrinityP3’s Managing Marketing podcast, visit https://www.trinityp3.com/managing-marketing-podcasts/ Recorded live on Zoom and edited, mixed and managed by JML Audio with thanks to Jared Lattouf.…
1 Belinda Lodge And Ellie Discuss The Trials And Tribulations Of An Advertising Recruiter 50:06
50:06 Play Later Play Later Lists Like Liked50:06
Play Later Play Later Lists Like LikedBelinda Lodge is the founder and CEO of iPopulate, a well known recruitment agency for advertising professionals. In a frank and wide-ranging discussion, Belinda and Ellie talk about bootstrapping a business with $400 and a milk crate; what a good recruitment consultant can bring to the table, and how perception of consultancy is blurred by individuals and organisations untrained in the discipline of recruiting; the best and the worst in candidates, and candidate selection, post-COVID; the scourge of under and over-remuneration of talent, international v local talent, and more - all threaded with Belinda’s infectious enthusiasm, her candid observations and her genuine love for her craft and for the advertising industry. Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/managing-marketing/id1018735190 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW?si=a3b63c66ab6e4934 Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/managing-marketing Listen on Podbean: https://managingmarketing.podbean.com/ For more episodes of TrinityP3’s Managing Marketing podcast, visit https://www.trinityp3.com/managing-marketing-podcasts/ Recorded live on Zoom and edited, mixed and managed by JML Audio with thanks to Jared Lattouf.…
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Some Goodness is hosted by Richard Ellis, a seasoned sales leader passionate about inviting top business minds to share their wisdom. Each episode is only 15-20 minutes, perfect for your commute or workout.
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The fun email marketing podcast. Sell more of your online courses, grow your membership and bring in more coaching clients with email marketing that doesn't stink. Sound good? Then join your fellow Email Marketing Heroes for your weekly dose of fun, practical, yet brutally honest email marketing advice. You can listen in to a piping hot, fresh episode every 'Email Marketing Wednesday' or if you prefer learning with your eyes instead of your ears, we turn each episode into a full written blog ...
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Kipp Bodnar (HubSpot’s CMO) and Kieran Flanagan (Hubspot's SVP of Marketing), lead you down the rabbit hole of marketing trends, growth tactics and innovation. On the way you’ll pick up undiscovered strategies to give you that slight edge for success. These are not your typical twitter thread regurgitated marketing tactics that everyone is doing. These are new methods, with unfiltered examination of successful fresh ideas.
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Wharton faculty and industry leaders discuss their latest research, books, and relevant business topics. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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Insightful interviews with authors, experts, entrepreneurs, and thought leaders who share valuable marketing tips, growth strategies, and resources. Hosted by John Jantsch, one of America's top small business marketing experts, this show is dedicated to helping you craft effective marketing strategies that will grow your business. Whether you're a small business owner, marketing professional, or marketing agency owner, you'll gain valuable insights and actionable advice on topics such as mar ...
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The Brutal Truth about Sales and Selling - We interview the world's best B2B Enterprise salespeople.
Brian Burns
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No BS Allowed - Are you sick of empty suits telling you to work harder? - Learn about The Maverick Selling Method, which models the world's best salespeople and what they do differently. If you are in sales and are passionate about selling, you will like this podcast. The focus is on b2b sales and selling. If you are selling or in sales, this podcast is for you. I cover cold calling, spin selling, challenger sale, solution selling, and advanced selling skills. Strategic selling, LinkedIn, sa ...
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