Episode 161 – ¿Por Qué No Los Dos?

Podcast Archives - The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies

It’s 395 BCE and we explore the events that are the result of the epic year of 396 BCE. The Romans ended 396 BCE on a high with their military success against the southern-most city of the Etruscans, Veii. But is all well in the Roman world? That may depend on which god you talk to…

An incomplete victory?

The defeat of Veii leaves the northern peoples – the Capenates and Faliscans – open to Rome’s wrath. Their resistance to Rome means that war is on Rome’s agenda. This may also explain why we see military tribunes with consular power.

A great time for some Roman colonising?

Despite the threats to the north, Rome seems intent on setting up a new colony down south towards Volscian territory. Does Rome really have the resources to spare for such an endeavour after a ten-year siege and problems north of Veii? Well, historians have some questions about that!

What’s up Apollo?

Camillus’ glorious leadership in taking Veii seems to be undermined by the his vow to Apollo which he had apparently forgotten. This creates real problems as the 10th portion to be offered to Apollo was not collected when the booty was distributed and now people OWE the gods… Will Camillus’ reputation emerge unscathed?

Things to listen out for

• Is Veii more attractive to the plebeians than Rome? Scandal!
• A proposal to send half of Rome’s population, patricians and plebeians to Veii – a classic case of Porque Lo Nos Dos?
• Some very grumpy patricians playing the ‘Romulus’ card
• Blaming Titus Sicinius for putting ideas into the plebeians’ heads
• Connections with Greek history…
• A beautiful golden bowl!
• Drama in Sicily including an appearance from Magon the Carthaginian

Our Players

Military Tribunes with Consular Power

• Publius Cornelius P. f. A. n. Cossus (Pat)
• Publius Cornelius – f. -. N. Scipio (Pat)
• Kaeso Fabius M. f. Q. n. Ambustus (Pat). Previously Military Tribune with Consular Power in 404, 401.
• Lucius Furius L. f. Sp. n. Medullinus (Pat). Previously Consul in 413, 409 and previously Military Tribune with Consular Power in 407, 405, 398, 397.
• Quintus Servilius Q. f. P. n. Fidenas (Pat). Previously Military Tribune with Consular Power in 402, 398.
• Marcus Valerius M. f. M. n. Lactucinus Maximus (Pat). Previously Military Tribune with Consular Power 398.

Tribunes of the Plebs

• Titus Sicinius
• Quintus Pomponius
• Aulus Verginius

Our Sources

• Dr Rad reads Livy, Ab Urbe Condita, 5 5.24.1-3
• Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus, 14.94.1-14.96; Fasti Capitolini; Plutarch, Life of Camillus, 7-8.
• Bernard, Seth. “Rome from the Sack of Veii to the Gallic Sack.” In Building Mid-Republican Rome. New York: Oxford University Press, 2018. https://doi.org/10.1093/oso/9780190878788.003.0003.
• Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press). https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.3366/j.ctv1c29s4s
• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association) https://archive.org/details/broughton-magistrates-roman-republic
• Bruun, Patrick. “Evocatio Deorum: Some Notes on the Romanization of Etruria.” Scripta Instituti Donneriani Aboensis 6 (1972): 109–20. https://doi.org/10.30674/scripta.67073
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
• Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War (University of California Press)
• Duff, T. E. 2010. ‘Plutarch’s Themistocles and Camillus’. In N. Humble, ed., Plutarch’s Lives: Parallelism and Purpose (Classical Press of Wales: Swansea, 2010), pp. 45-86. https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctvvnbtz
• Gowing, Alain M. 2009. “The Roman exempla tradition in imperial Greek historiography: The case of Camillus in Feldherr, A., ed. The Cambridge Companion to the Roman Historians. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2009. https://doi.org/10.1017/CCOL9780521854535
• Kraus, C. S. 2020. ‘Urban Disasters and Other Romes: The Case of Veii’ in Closs, V. M., Keitel, E. eds. Urban Disasters and the Roman Imagination (De Gruyter), 17-31. https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110674736
• Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The Rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938.
• Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press).
• Raaflaub, K. A. 2006. Social struggles in archaic Rome: New Perspectives on the Conflict of the Orders (2nd ed). (Wiley). https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/book/10.1002/9780470752753
• Robbins, E. (. (2006). Encomium. In Brill’s New Pauly Online. Brill. https://doi.org/10.1163/1574-9347_bnp_e330580
• Smith, Christopher, Jacopo Tabolli, and Orlando Cerasuolo. “Furius Camillus and Veii.” In Veii, 217–24. New York, USA: University of Texas Press, 2021. https://doi.org/10.7560/317259-030.
• Stevenson, T.R. “Parens Patriae and Livy’s Camillus.” Ramus 29, no. 1 (2000): 27–46. https://doi.org/10.1017/S0048671X00001673.

Sound Credits

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

The Triumph of Camillus, c. 1470/1475. Biagio d’Antonio and Workshop

Automated Transcript

Lightly edited for our wonderful Australian accents 🙂

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr Rad

Dr G 0:33
And I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr Rad,

Dr G 1:05
And I am Dr G and I am super excited because we are no longer in 396 BCE.

Dr Rad 1:14
396 was clearly the best year ever. So I don’t know why you’d even say that. It’s quite hurtful. Frankly,

Dr G 1:21
The Romans are probably sad that it’s over, because they had a great time in the end, although it didn’t start out quite so well,

Dr Rad 1:28
although there were some ups and downs, admittedly, so let’s talk about it. Dr, G, why was 396 so great in the end?

Dr G 1:36
In the end, it is the conclusion of the 10 year siege of bae and a whole bunch of reasons the Romans have been really building up this moment in their written history centuries after the event. So this is viewed many years later as a hugely significant moment in Rome’s history, because it is their first major conquest of a significant Etruscan city.

Dr Rad 2:08
Absolutely, they have more than doubled the territory that they originally possess. So it’s quite impressive, and it’s all down to one man, Dr G, if we’ve learned anything from history, it is that conquering large cities and other nations can only be done by one man,

Dr G 2:26
a single man, a man called Camillus.

Dr Rad 2:30
That’s right, Camillus is the hero of the hour in the siege of they but there are signs of trouble ahead. Dr G even in his moment of glory when he led this victory against Veii, there have been some problems. He tripped to have he tripped when talking to the gods. I mean, is there any humanity left in the world?

Dr G 2:55
It’s like going to a party and spilling the drink all over yourself. Tragic times everybody kind of gasps, being quite concerned, tripping over while you’re talking to the gods is obviously a bad sign. But I think even worse is that there’s a whole bunch of promises that he makes to gods as well.

Dr Rad 3:19
Foolishly

Dr G 3:19
I wonder how that’s going to go for him. I really do.

Dr Rad 3:23
Yeah, well, because it’s required the people to come back and donate part of the booty that they took from the conquest of Fae in order to satisfy the requirements of this vow that he made to Delphic Apollo, who had prophesied Rome’s success against Veii. So obviously, the Rome, you know, Apollo, did them a solid, and they want to, they want to pay him back. And they want it to be something nice. They don’t want it to just be, you know, a supermarket box of chocolates. They want it to be something really special.

Dr G 3:57
They do. And so Camillus is promise to Apollo is really the crux of the issue for him, in the end, because despite the success of the conquest of they, they still have this outstanding promise to keep to Apollo. And apparently Camillus forgot. Awkward. So not only does he trip over, he’s a little bit forgetful, and he does have a moment as well, on a more positive note, where he asks Juno, who is the titular goddess of Veii, if she will switch sides, and she agrees. So that works out for him quite well, but this situation with Apollo may be going to come back to bite him on the bottom, as it were.

Dr Rad 4:48
And speaking of his bottom, Dr G, he sat it upon some white horses. No, not really. He would have been in the little thing behind it. But we did also have some issues with his triumph. He has not. To earned himself Good Will because his triumph was considered OTT in the worst possible way.

Dr G 5:07
Goodness me, what has he done now?

Dr Rad 5:12
So that’s basically the sticky situation in which we find ourselves. Dr G, there’s been lots of good news coming out of 396 which we had to cover in three episodes, but there have definitely been signs that it’s not going to be all smooth sailing for our hero, Camillus.

Dr G 5:29
I’m glad you’ve mentioned smooth sailing that will come up later.

Dr Rad 5:33
Indeed. So Dr, G, I think it’s time For us to dive into 395 BCE.

All right, it’s 395, BC, Dr G and I would like to ask you to take us through the magistrates for the first time in a while.

Dr G 6:28
Oh goodness me. I’m not even used to this job anymore. Everybody bear with me while I butcher some Latin for you. We have six military tribunes with consular power for the year of 395 now they’re all patrician. So way to return to form Rome, we have Publius Cornelius Cossus, first time in the role Publius Cornelius Scipio, first time in the role. Kaeso Fabius Ambustus. Now, he has been a military tribune before in 404 and 401 so he’s got a little bit more experience. Yeah, we then have Lucius Furius Medullinus. Another Furii enters the fold. Now he was also previously consul, so he’s had the top notch job in 413 and 409 but he’s also been a pretty regular military tribune with consular power as well. 407, 405, 398, 397 so probably the most experienced of the bunch this time round, our Furius. Then we have Quintus Servilius Fidenas, also previously military tribune with consular power in 402, and 398, so Medullinus and Fidenas have served together before. They’re maybe their friends, maybe their rivals, and Marcus Valerius Lactucinus Maximus, he was also previously military tribune with consular power in 398, so we have a full compliment, if you like, of military tribunes. There’s a whole stack of them this year, and you think to yourself, you guys have just won a siege. Do you really have so many problems on so many other fronts that you need so many so many military folk? But I guess we’ll find out. I’m looking forward to what Livy might have to say about this year, and I also have the name of three tribunes of the plebs?

Dr Rad 8:41
Yes. Finally, it’s been too long.

Dr G 8:45
Somebody’s got to stand up for the common man. Let it be the tribune of the plebs. So in this role, we have a guy called Titus Sicinius, another man called Quintus Pomponius, and finally, Aulus Verginius.

Dr Rad 9:04
I, too, have these names strategy, and I’m very excited about it.

Dr G 9:09
I’m looking forward to learning what’s going on, because, as per usual for me, at the moment, I have few sources that will give me a breakdown on what’s going on, analystically, for this time period. So I’m going to sweep you away with other details instead, at some point in this episode.

Dr Rad 9:27
You always do, Dr G, well, okay, so let me set the scene a little bit. Now. I have mentioned previously that for Livy, Camillus is obviously a huge focal point, to the extent that academic think, he might have actually structured his first 10 books around Camillus appearance, as in, not the way that he looks, but like when he shows up in this.

Dr G 9:55
Don’t be like that,

Dr Rad 9:56
Although I’m sure he’s hot

Dr G 9:57
I’m sure he was a buff dude. He needs a tribute.

Dr Rad 10:02
Now they being captured is obviously a very big moment, as we have been saying in Rome’s history. But there’s something else that now lies ahead, and it’s very difficult for Livy to pretend that that is not on the horizon. Dr G, so I’m going to have to spoil it, even though I think I’ve mentioned it about 100 times already. Whilst Rome has managed to conquer they it is only years away from being conquered itself.

Dr G 10:32
Oh, no, the spoilers,

Dr Rad 10:34
I know, I know, but I can’t help it, because that is seemingly what Livy is now building to.

Dr G 10:43
He’s gotten this major situation with Camillus done and dusted, and he’s like, Okay, on to the next disaster.

Dr Rad 10:50
Yeah, pretty much. He’s obviously got details in the analysis histories and records that came before him. He’s probably got some dates, like when colonies were founded. He’s probably got some details about when military campaigns were happening for Rome, maybe some legal details. But as we always say, when it’s this early on in Rome’s history, he’s still trying to figure out how it all fits together, and so we have to kind of be aware that this is what he’s thinking about when he’s constructing the history that he’s writing.

Dr G 11:26
Definitely so Livy is operating from the shoulders of giants, as far as he is concerned, to write his own history, and this means that he has to navigate the tricky waters of whatever the sources that we don’t have privy to, but he did have left behind.

Dr Rad 11:47
Now you asked Dr G why so many military tribunes? Well, obviously it’s because you want to have military tribunes, because you want to dangle that carrot always in front of the plebs. You go, you could, maybe get a magistrate. Maybe you could, maybe you could. Maybe you would keep working towards it. Keep working towards it. Just keep swimming. Just keep swimming.

Dr G 12:09
And rude. I mean, I mean, if you wanted to give people that sense that it’s possible, surely just have at least one plebeian in there each year,

Dr Rad 12:19
Never! I would rather die than see grubby little paws sully the office of the chief magistracy.

Dr G 12:29
I think this leads us deeper into the thorny problem of what does it mean to be an elite Roman in this very particular period of Roman republic? So we could say that we’ve just left the really early Republic, and we’ve started to step into what will be known as the middle Republic, but it’s a little bit hazy as to what is going on and where all of these very privileged, elite patrician people are coming from. And Rome has a whole history of bringing in new people all the time, and being quite accommodating, really, for people, right from the point of Romulus saying, this is a city of asylum, essentially. So we do have a lot of spread-outness of where family lines seem to come from in Rome. And obviously Rome emerging as a republic, those early, early patrician families get to say that they’re Roman, but obviously they have to have come from somewhere else, because Rome didn’t exist before, before. So exactly this whole idea of who counts as the highly privileged here and who does not is the sort of thing that has framed our understanding of the struggle of the orders, but does become an ongoing issue for how we understand Roman power, because it seems pretty clear from our source material that there is this simplistic division being offered to us when actually the nature of family life and who gets to progress into politics is far more complicated, as would make sense for the fact that Rome is an expanding power that’s open to absorbing people into it and also encouraging foreigners to come and stay.

Dr Rad 14:15
The little known fact Dr G that Livy actually inspired the Avril Lavigne smash, ‘Why did you have to go make things so complicated?’

Dr G 14:25
It’s all making sense now.

Dr Rad 14:27
I know, I know. All right, so the reason, potentially that we also have military tribune so is that there is still some war on Rome’s front. Now, lest we forget, Dr G they has been conquered, but these allies have not and so we have the two Cornelii amongst our military tribunes being sent off to war against the Faliscans. And then we have Valerius and Servilius at war with Capena, because they had both sided with Veii. So.

Dr G 15:00
Yes. Now both of these places, if I remember rightly, are to the north of Rome, and so they’re heading into that Etruscan territory situation, which is-

Dr Rad 15:10
Is it Etruscan territory anymore?

Dr G 15:16
Well, those Romans have changed everything, haven’t they? But certainly we’ve talked about the Faliscians and the Capenates as being people who are sort of further north than Veii and have realized at a certain point that this whole siege situation of they is going to be a problem for them, and now those chickens are coming home to roost by the sounds of it.

Dr Rad 15:38
Oh, they’re coming home all right. So the Roman commanders decide, You know what, we’ve had enough of attacking cities. Let’s just take it easy and completely devastate the surrounding countryside and take everything that the farmers who live in that surrounding area have to offer. In fact, and I quote my translation of Livy, they said they wanted to leave not one fruit tree in the land, nor any productive plant.

Dr G 16:04
Wow, yeah, it’s like the Romans have turned around after all of this siege work that they’ve conducted. And being like, you know what? I really miss pillaging, pillaging. I haven’t done that for years now.

Dr Rad 16:15
And you know what? I like apples and oranges. Actually, I can’t, I can’t remember if they would have been growing. Probably not.

Dr G 16:22
No, definitely not. If we’re talking about fruit trees. Oh, goodness, what would have been growing in Italy in this tim period?

Dr Rad 16:29
Pears?

Dr G 16:30
Listeners, weigh in and tell us, probably pears, yes, lemons, potentially, and olive trees for sure.

Dr Rad 16:40
Yeah. Anyway. So this works very well against the capitates completely subdues them. They seek peace. The Romans are like, Yep, sure, that’s what we really wanted. However, those pesky and adorable Faliscans continue to resist.

Dr G 16:57
How dare they?

Dr Rad 16:59
Now I’m going to take you back to Rome. Dr G where apparently there were, and I quote, again, disturbances of many sorts. Seems that the Romans are not sitting back and reveling in their victory. Now, what these disturbances are exactly? Who knows? Livy doesn’t tell me. He just tells me that there are problems and that the Senate needed to do something in order to shut people up because they were sick of hearing them complain.

Dr G 17:26
All right. I mean, these disturbances could be anything. Then it could just be an errant sign from the gods to weird things turning up in the water supply. Nobody knows

Dr Rad 17:36
it could be. Look, I suspect it probably has something to do with the fact that the Romans have just come into a large amount of territory and booty. I think this is probably all connected. They’ve not happy with Camillus entirely. He tripped. He had white horses in his triumph. It’s just all too much. Dr G, it’s very overwhelming. So they decide to put a colony on the Volscian frontier, and they need 3000 citizens in order to make it viable, allegedly. And so they set up a board of three to decide what how this is going to play out. And they determine that anybody who goes to this new colony would be given three juguera and 7/12ths in terms of their land, which I believe. So. I think a jugera is about 28,000 square feet.

Dr G 18:29
Oh, well, that doesn’t help me at all. I’m a metric kind of girl.

Dr Rad 18:32
Yeah, no, it doesn’t help me either. Look, it’s all it’s just space. It’s just space.

Dr G 18:38
I believe a jugera is supposed to be the amount of land that one can profitably farm to exist for yourself and your family. So three is a pretty nice gesture. It is. But Volscian territory, I mean, they’ve just taken Veii, the Volsci are in the other direction.

Dr Rad 18:56
Well, this is the thing, right? So first of all, let’s just have a quick reality check. There’s my sound effect. I’m putting on the brakes.

Modern academics have found it extremely dubious that Rome would have 3000 citizens to spare for said colony. They think that perhaps about 300 might be more realistic for this time period.

Dr G 19:22
Hmm, okay. Now, does this story in any way parallel the suggestion that people remove themselves from Rome and inhabit they instead?

Dr Rad 19:35
This does have to do with that. I’m going to get there in just a moment. So we probably got, yeah, we have probably got essentially just a small band of colonists who are going to set out and set up this new colony. Now, back to Livy’s account. The plebs are not at all impressed by this suggestion, because they feel this new colony is clearly just a diversion. They’re trying. Trying to buy off the plebs with crappy, stupid land and banish them to this stupid frontier when they could be going to Veii, which is right there, and they can see it and everything. They want to live in Veii even more than they want to live in Rome itself,

Dr G 20:24
Ooo okay

Dr Rad 20:24
In fact. And this is where what you said comes in. They even discuss at this point, why don’t we just all pack up shop, leave Rome behind, move today. I mean, after all, location, location, location, Dr G, it has a better location. It has nicer buildings. It has the theater, the museums, the art, the comedy, the promenades. Clearly, this is a genius plan.

Dr G 20:52
It also serves as cover for a plebeian secession that could succeed being like we’re out of here, guys, not only are we leaving Rome, but we have a better place to go. They is positioned on the top of a tufa outpost, essentially, so a sort of semi hard rock outcrop, so it’s easily defensible. That’s the idea. This is why it took Rome so long to besiege it and to take it over. But now that Rome possesses it, it should be theoretically easy for them to defend as well. So if somebody wanted to take they from them, you would expecting at least another 10 year siege, if not longer, because the Romans understand how sieging that place works, and probably have some ideas about how to combat that.

Dr Rad 21:45
No tunnels!

Dr G 21:48
Don’t let anybody build any tunnels. That is a suspicious trap door in the ground. Where’s that going all the way to they, my friends. So for the plebeians to sort of up sticks and be like, You know what? I just gonna move to this empty city over here. A whole bunch of them were probably involved in the conquest anyway. So they know what they’re getting themselves into. They probably realize the amount of rebuilding work that would need to happen there. I’d be interested to see how this pans out for them, though.

Dr Rad 22:18
Well, Dr G, this is where probably the most famous ad for tacos comes in, because the plan is that they’re going to send half of the plebs, but also half of the Senate to they so they weren’t planning on just sending plebs, and they basically asked the Senate, why can’t the Romans be in both cities? ¿Por Qué No Los Dos?

Dr G 22:42
Fair enough, yeah. Finally, we’ve conquered something. Let’s divide after conquering,

Dr Rad 22:50
the patricians were outraged at this suggestion. They literally said that they would sooner die than ever. Let such a suggestion even come to a vote, Dr G, let alone make it reality.

Dr G 23:04
Okay, so the senatorial faction is basically against this whole idea that half of them might have to live somewhere else.

Dr Rad 23:12
Yes, that’s what they say. This is a terrible idea. They say, look at us as Romans. We are constantly having internal problems in bickering amongst ourselves. If there were two Romes, it would be double trouble, so much worse. And how dare the plebs want to go and live in they? I mean, they just lost a war. Loser. Rome was the winner of that conquest, and everyone should want to live there, because it is clearly the superior place to be. Okay. The patricians would never be leaving behind their fellow Romans or their beloved city, no matter what you could threaten them with anything, Dr G, becoming too feminine, becoming too Greek, and they’d say, No, never, I’m not afraid of you. I am staying right here, okay, and this is where the tribune of the plebs comes in, touchy, okay?

Dr G 24:14
Yeah, I was gonna say somebody needs to stand up to this kind of mad rhetoric, because you’re not gonna ever be able to hold ve unless you put some of your own people in there, and it’s a matter of who’s it going to be

Dr Rad 24:27
Pish posh with your sensibilities.

Dr G 24:30
How dare you be military strategic in this time, I’m having emotions!

Dr Rad 24:35
So this is where the tribune of the plebs come in. The patricians say that no one would be following this idea, were it not for Titus Sicinius. He’s apparently the one that came up with this brilliant idea. And they’re like, You know what? Why don’t you just make him the new founder of this place that you want to go and live? Because if you go to they. You’re going to be leaving behind the best founder that ever existed, Romulus. I mean, you’re literally spitting on the son of a God who founded Rome, but whatever.

Dr G 25:12
Wow. Okay, so things are getting tense in the public discourse, aren’t they?

Dr Rad 25:18
I really love it when the patricians get hysterical. It’s my favorite.

Dr G 25:22
Well, I think pulling out the Romulus card is a big one, though.

Dr Rad 25:26
Yeah, apparently this is a little reminiscent of, once again, an episode in Greek history. So there are similar arguments put forth when some of the Athenians refused to leave Athens at the time of the Battle of Salamis. So it’s possible that Livy is borrowing a little bit from Herodotus here.

Dr G 25:51
Okay, now that is interesting, because if Livy is borrowing from Herodotus, then also Livy must be aware of the level to which the Athenians engaged in a colonization process across the Mediterranean. People were leaving Athens all the time to found colonies. They weren’t against the colonial settlement thing.

Dr Rad 26:15
I think it’s more the rhetoric he likes, not so much the endless colonization that he’s praising. But after all, he’s not saying he’s against color colonization. It’s more because he I think he’s in favor of them just doing what they’re told, going to this volscian colony. I suspect the patricians have something else planned for they. Uh, oh, yeah. Now we don’t know very much about this Titus aequinius character, but the name might sound familiar to you. Dr, G, so we don’t really know anything else about this guy, except that he comes from a family that is known to stand up for the plebs, like he’s got that association happening.

Dr G 26:53
Hmm, okay, so there is a reasonable understanding that he might act to type in this case, yes.

Dr Rad 27:03
Now this debate led to some absolutely disgusting accusations. Dr G that the senate slash patricians, it’s never clear who Livy’s exactly talking about, had once again, perhaps persuaded some of the tribunes of the plebs to side with them on this whole Veii colony idea.

Dr G 27:26
Oh no, stop it. Every time I think that we’ve got the plebs like lined up and finally, something’s going to happen, undermined by the patricians.

Dr Rad 27:36
Yeah, so the plebs are clearly intending to fight hard for this idea. They are heading down the path of starting a violent riot, but they are prevented from doing so because the senators have an ingenious way of handling it, much like handling a difficult toddler who’s having a complete and utter meltdown. So whenever it looks like during the debate, violence is about to kick off. They say to the people, go on, beat me. Kick me, attack me. Ha, that’s what you want, isn’t it? You want to see these distinguished silver foxes with all their blue blood splattered everywhere. You want to see people with amazing political experience who’ve been decorated with many honors, disgraced by their fellow citizens, and this makes the plebeians think twice and decide not to attack.

Dr G 28:29
Wow. Okay, yeah, and that’s only takes. You never want to see me bleed

Dr Rad 28:41
Now Camillus, he resurges in my narrative here, he is constantly ticking off the people just nag, nag, nag. Dr G, he is disgusted by the fact that they are so caught up in other concerns and do not seem to realize that they have yet to make the contributions that have been asked of them for the gift to Apollo. Tick tock, Dr G, tick tock.

Dr G 29:06
well, yeah, you can’t keep a god waiting that’s gonna that’s gonna turn out badly in the end, I would think

Dr Rad 29:13
now he’s particularly concerned, as it seems like the people of Rome are considering that the tithe only included movable wealth. However, he’s like, I don’t know. Maybe it should also include they, I mean, like the actual land. This is part of the parcel, after all, this is what people are fighting about. The Senate have no idea. So they ask the pontiffs to weigh in, and they go in and they have a meeting with Camillus. They have a sit down. They have a chat. They then decide that, as Camillus made the vow before he won the victory and before the Romans were in control of the land, it also has to be included in the tithe 1/10th

Dr G 29:56
What?

Dr Rad 29:57
I know

Dr G 29:57
Okay. Okay, so, uh, interjection, interjection, Plutarch’s Life of Camillus. I do have some source material on this, okay, not a lot. Admittedly, I had no idea that they were going to try and include a 10th of the land taking.

Dr Rad 30:14
Oh, it’s all going to be counted.

Dr G 30:16
Yeah. Look, people do turn against him. That seems pretty clear. So part of the issue is related to what is known as the 10th of the spolia. So anytime that they take something, if a promise has been made to a god, there’s a specific percentage that needs to be handed over as part of this and in this case, it’s understood that Apollo deserves a 10th of the spoils taken of Veii. Now, Plutarch doesn’t specify one way or the other, whether this includes land. It doesn’t seem like the pontiffs get involved at all, but the problem is that everybody has already taken their portion of the booty and also possibly already spent it.

Dr Rad 31:01
Wow.

Dr G 31:04
Not everybody is a rich patrician with a lot of wealth on hand. Some people make their living when they’re on campaign As citizen soldiers. This makes sense if you’re not harvesting your own crop because you’ve been called away to a campaign instead, then the booty is really your payment. Rome doesn’t have a standing army at this point in its history, and as we’ve learned just very recently, in terms of the siege of a we get the first inkling that they might have given a payment for some of the soldiers to stay the winter in location, and even that’s contested. So the idea is that you have to win, because that’s how you make the money, in order to allow you to keep living your life. Because if you haven’t been there for the harvest, you haven’t been able to do that work, and it’s had to be delegated to other people in your family who haven’t been on campaign. So that workload is a problem, and so the booty is crucial for your life in terms of how you do business and do merchant, sell-y, type, buying, type, things, trade, whatever. So the fact that they had their booty and they’ve their booty is now gone, is perhaps not a surprise. The problem is that now they’ve been told, after the fact, that 1/10th of all of it needs to be given over for this promise to Apollo, which Camillus apparently forgot. And people are angry about this, because it’s not going to be the booty that they have to give over. That 10th is going to have to come out of their own savings, whatever they have, in order to fulfill this promise, because they weren’t told about it at the time, and they can’t get out of it now, because the gods are unhappy,

Dr Rad 33:01
Camillus really should start writing things down.

Dr G 33:04
Well, yeah, Camillus, what’s your strategy? You’re gonna keep a diary.

Dr Rad 33:10
What they decide is that money needs to be taken out of the treasury. The military tribunes with consular power, are told to go and buy some gold with this however, there is not enough gold to be had, and so, Dr G, hold on to your hat. The matrons decide that they’re going to personally intervene. I don’t know how long it’s been since we mentioned a woman, but they’re entering our narrative right now. Matrons meet privately. So these would be married women, ladies, and they voluntarily decide that they’re going to bring in all of their jewelry and donate this so that enough gold can be had for this super special gift to Delphic Apollo

Dr G 33:54
Yes. Now this is an amazing moment in Roman history, and I don’t want to overstate how amazing it is, but it’s pretty amazing that something like this is being mentioned at this point in the Republic. So Plutarch has this idea as well, and it talks about how there’s a scarcity of gold in the city. The women, on their own determination, come forward and give their gold ornaments to get the gold weight up to where it needs to be in order to function as a 10% tithe to Apollo. And this is incredible to me for a number of reasons, one, because it serves as an early mirror, if you like, to something that happens in the Punic Wars.

Dr Rad 34:48
I was going to say, does give me flashbacks or flash forwards? I don’t know how you describe that.

Dr G 34:52
Yeah, I think, I think Livy is maybe offering something here that serves as a bit of a contrast slash compare with what happens in around about 215 BCE, not to spoil things for people, because it’s going to take us another 10 years to get that. But they do bring in what is called a sumptuary law during the Punic Wars, the lex Oppia, which is basically restricting the wealth of women and their display of it because they are in a military and fiscal crisis because of the ongoing Punic War, and that is then mirrored, compare contrast to then what happens in the Civil War triumviral period in 42 BCE when the Romans do try to impose a tax directly on women to try and fund some of the insane warfare that is going on, they’ve taxed everybody

Dr Rad 35:51
No taxation without representation, buddy boy,

Dr G 35:55
yeah, and we get this really famous moment from Hortensia who stands up and says, exactly as you’ve put it, no taxation without representation. We’re not going to have it. So the fact that the women in this example are voluntarily getting together for this gesture, I wonder if Livy is trying to set this up as a bit of an exemplar for women.

Dr Rad 36:19
Oh I think he definitely is.

Dr G 36:21
This is, this is maybe how you’re supposed to do it, rather than waiting to get taxed or to complain about getting taxed, why don’t you do your civic duty and come together and volunteer to hand over all of your jewelry like women in 395 BCE. Thank you very much.

Dr Rad 36:42
It was with the golden times.

Dr G 36:45
Oh, the golden days.

Dr Rad 36:48
Now the Senate are incredibly touched by this gesture. Little tears form at the corner of their eyes, Dr G and they start mumbling about having allergies and it being hayfever season. They then permit the matrons a special honor in recognition of this contribution, which is, they’re allowed to drive around in four wheeled carriages to any festival or games that are being held and on holy and working days, which I feel like it’s every day that doesn’t make any sense, they’re allowed to drive around in two wheeled cars.

Dr G 37:25
Ah, no, no. Well, holy and working days, yeah, you could have a nefas day where you wouldn’t be allowed to do it, I would say. Now this is very different from the kinds of awards, if you like that the Senate grants to the women in Plutarch. And it is, yeah, he doesn’t talk about carts at all. And Plutarch-

Dr Rad 37:49
Carriages thank you not carts. What are they vegetables?

Dr G 37:54
Probably, I don’t what are they made out of trees? So Plutarch is writing hundreds of years after Livy, so we might want to dismiss his claims as being maybe a little bit more far fetched. But it is interesting. What he does say is that these women are rewarded by the Senate that when they die, that they can have a suitable eulogy spoken over them well in the same way that men can, and this is effectively an example of what is known as a an encomium. So encomia are speeches of praise. They are very particular.

Dr Rad 38:42
That seems waaay too early Plutarch.

Dr G 38:45
It does seem way too early. And I was also looking into it being like, when do we have some really solid examples of women being commemorated and praised in really formal speeches that we could understand as encomia, yeah, and there, there is one from this period, really, but it is in Greek, and it’s an encomium to Helen of Troy.

Dr Rad 39:12
Oh, that doesn’t count.

Dr G 39:14
We’re talking about very different categories of women at that point, because Helen of Troy, as we know, was the face that launched a 1000 ships, and she’s-

Dr Rad 39:23
She may not have even been real!

Dr G 39:26
Oh, well, you know, you’d have to ask Herodotus, he’s pretty sure she went to Egypt. But Gorgias, the guy that writes this encomium to Helen, he’s actually a native of Sicily, so he’s not that far like he’s part of the Greek world. He’s definitely in Magna Graecia, but he is also in Italy in that broader sense. So it’s not completely impossible that as early as this time period, we have women who are granted the honor. Of being commemorated with encomia, but plutarchs distance from the fact kind of raises the question, I think, a little bit. But anyway, I thought this was interesting enough to follow up on, because I was like, really this early. I was like, fascinating, but the carriages made far more sense. Well, the carriages make far more sense. I would say, yeah.

Dr Rad 40:23
See, I just don’t know that we have even had that many examples for men. You know, where like it’s specifically recorded that that kind of public speech is given for a man, let alone a woman?

Dr G 40:35
Well, the implication in Plutarch is that it was usual for elite men to receive this kind of honor upon their death.

Dr Rad 40:43
Sure, from in the empire, yeah.

Dr G 40:46
And I think this is where we can start to sort of build a case that, like maybe Plutarch is retrojecting just like way, way too much here. And the idea that it would have been unusual in his time period for women to receive this kind of honor gives you a sense of just how long it takes for women to get any sort of respectful foothold in public society, in terms of the Roman history across the board, even when we get into the Empire.

Dr Rad 41:17
All right. Well, nonetheless. Dr G however it happens, whether there are nameless matrons involved or not, the gold is finally collected up, and they have it made into a beautiful golden bowl to give to Apollo. However, now that the vow has been taken care of, and Camillus is dabbing the sweat from his brow, the tribunes of the plebs enter the scene once more to stir up trouble. They want to make the plebeians absolutely furious with the patricians, but especially with Camillus. They accuse him of basically having given them absolutely nothing. Thanks a lot. Camillus, everything that you won at Veii has gone to either the state treasury or the gods. Blaah, that’s what we think of you. Where’s our cut? Huh? Huh? We’ve supported this venture for the last 10 years. What are you playing it?

Dr G 42:17
It is a grave accusation

Dr Rad 42:21
Any patricians, well, which I’m presuming, patricians, to be honest. He says, leaders that were not there at this particular meeting were trashed. The tribunes of the plebs and the plebeians join in bitching behind their back. But if you were there, they attach you right to your face. However, that means that you were able to defend yourself. And if they once, they started doing that, once again, they use that same sort of strategy. It basically shut the plebeians right up because they were embarrassed for making these accusations against such eminent, amazing, outstanding people as the patricians. I mean, they’re kind of really tremendous. You know, they’re really tremendous, absolutely outstanding. I love it.

Dr G 43:04
I do like the idea that the patricians are like these kind of like legendary, mythic creatures, and the plebeians are sort of going up to them and sort of poking them with a stick from behind, being like, is it moving? Can I insult it now and then, when it turns around, they’re like, run away again.

Dr Rad 43:21
It does seem like that. It makes the plebeian seem completely ludicrous, which I think is Livy’s intent. Now, the plebeians could tell that they weren’t going to get their desire of the Rome. They situation, the ¿Por Qué No Los Dos? happening in one year. They’re like, this is going to be a long haul thing, guys. So they try to make sure that they get the exact same tribune of the plebs elected in the next year, because they know that they’re going to support their demands. The patricians, once they get wind of this, try to make sure that the people who were against it get elected as military tribunes with consular power, basically meaning that we end up with the same military tribunes with consular power and the same tribunes of the plebs holding office in the next year.

Dr G 44:18
Well, this sounds like a chronology issue to me, I’m just flagging it now…

Dr Rad 44:23
It might well be, but how dare you point it out? Livy had covered it up so skillfully,

Dr G 44:28
no one will ever know.

Dr Rad 44:32
Yeah. And also, when you actually look at the list of people, it’s not the same, like there are some people who are the same, but it’s not the same,

Dr G 44:40
Okay, well, that’s reassuring. So Livy’s just making some stuff up. He wants it to be this way.

Dr Rad 44:45
Well kind of and kind of not. Basically, there are some military tribunes with consular power who are the same, and certainly the tribunes of the plebs are the same. So that part is true, if we believe that this is all actually happening, and Livy’s not just tap dancing because he can’t make the magistrates work.

Dr G 45:03
Well, yes, I mean, the less said about that, the better. I’ve already mentioned my skepticism. Well, that’s all I got, Dr G.

Ah, well, you’re lucky I’m here because goodness knows what’s happening in Sicily.

Dr Rad 45:19
What is happening in Sicily? Are there still tyrants running about?

Dr G 45:22
Oh yes, things are chaotic. So Diodorus Siculus manages to get every single name of the military tribunes correct to to the degree that he has six names, and they can be allocated out to six individuals differently.

Dr Rad 45:38
Amazing.

Dr G 45:39
He doesn’t have the full names of anybody, but he’s got some names, and they all kind of work. But the situation in Sicily is heating up, so the Carthaginians have decided that they’re going to launch their attack. Very exciting. They’re bringing troops with them from Libya and Sardinia. So they’re coming in a kind of like two different directions, down to Sicily,

Dr Rad 46:05
A pincer movement

Dr G 46:07
I know – with boats, I’m not sure if it works the same for islands, but I guess we’re about to find out. And apparently, also some folk from Italy from the mainland, who Diodorus Siculus describes as barbarians, Italian barbarians. So goodness knows what’s happening in the south of Italy right now. I feel for them. I’m pretty sure they’re not barbarians, but they have been labeled as such. So the Carthaginian forces are being led by a guy called Magon and he is rivaling off against the tyrant of Syracuse, essentially, a guy called Dionysus, who we’ve talked a little bit about before.

Dr Rad 46:57
Yeah,

Dr G 46:57
So these two are coming. It’s all coming into a kind of a crescendo of a lot of warships. Definitely, battle is going to take place. The Carthaginians start to storm the interior of Sicily. So they make landfall. They start to get in there. They’re gathering disaffected Sicilians along the way, because not everybody’s excited to have a tyrant ruling over them. Goodness knows why?

Dr Rad 47:26
There’s no accounting for taste.

Dr G 47:27
But then just depends. But they get to a place called Agyris, and Agyris is the linchpin on all of this. So Agyris is both the name of a place the name of the guy who’s in charge of the place, and that makes you suspicious as well. I mean, like Agyris leading Agyris with the Agyrinaeans. But anyway, this guy seems to be very powerful, and he and Dionysus get together, and they agree that they will repel the Carthaginians as a united force. So it’s kind of like two tyrants are now getting together here in Sicily to repel the Carthaginians. And it works partly because Magon’s forces are so stretched. So the Carthaginians have not only had to sail all this way to get to this island, but not everybody is happy to see them. So everything is a hostile situation of a moving battle line, and also logistics and supplies. So the further they get into the interior of Sicily, the harder it’s going to become. And so by the time they get to this Agyris, where Dionysus and this leader have made a pact to deal with the Carthaginians, the forces are so stretched that they just can’t handle it anymore. So deep in hostile territory, the Carthaginians decide that it’s not going their way. They’re lacking supplies. They’re at a complete disadvantage in terms of the terrain, and they sue for peace. And so this is a sort of a tricky year for the Carthaginians, because they started out being like, so bold and being like, we’ve got this. We’re pulling forces from everywhere. We’re so well organized, and they really couldn’t do it in the end. So this is great for Dionysus. He is able to take possession of more cities in Sicily as a result, and he’s also got a new ally on the island as well. So it is a bit of an issue. Now, Diodorus Siculus is also totally across everything that is happening for the Romans, and he has a single sentence for them. Which is such was the state of affairs in Sicily and in Italy, the Romans pillaged the city of Faliscus​a and the tribe of the Falisci.

Dr Rad 50:12
Aha.

Dr G 50:14
That’s all he’s got to say.

Dr Rad 50:18
Well, he’s pretty on the money, I suppose you just left out all the interesting internal flappy fighting that’s going on.

Dr G 50:25
Yeah, just a minor details of missing that’s all but exactly clearly, so Didorus Siculus, giving us this really in depth history of Sicily is going to become more and more useful as Rome’s influence starts to expand

Dr Rad 50:41
Absolutely.

Dr G 50:42
He also spends a lot of time talking about Greek history, which I am tending not to focus on right now, but that might become interesting as well at some point, and when I think it is, I’ll start to bring that in as well. But yes, I have very little Roman history to share, sadly, but things progressing in Sicily, the Carthaginians, the people of Sicily. It’s all happening. Sardinia is involved. And those Italian barbarians, whoever they are,

Dr Rad 51:10
I’m going to imagine that there’s Samnites or Oscans or somebody like that.

Dr G 51:14
Yeah, I feel like you know anybody in the south, I suppose, could be classified in this group.

Dr Rad 51:20
Yeah, probably not the Samnites. All right. Dr G, that means it is time for the Partial Pick.

Why? Thank you, Igor, so. Dr G, tell us, what is the Partial Pick and what are we doing here?

Dr G 51:41
Goodness me, the Partial Pick, this is where we rate Rome according to some of its own conventions. So there are five categories. Each is worth 10 gold Roman eagles. So they can achieve a maximum score of 50 golden Roman eagles, much better than a bowl, I would say.

Dr Rad 52:03
I was gonna say, I have something to confess. We actually ran out of enough gold for the Eagles, so I’ve donated my own jewelry collection for this episode. That’s my dedication.

Dr G 52:12
There will be a speech of praise said over your body when the time is right.

Dr Rad 52:18
All right, what’s our first category, Dr G?

Dr G 52:21
Our first category is military clout.

Dr Rad 52:24
Okay, well, I think yes, there is definitely some stuff going on here. We have got a very easy victory, it seems, over Capena. And whilst we don’t have too much detail in this year about the Faliscans, the Romans aren’t losing against them. Hmm.

Dr G 52:43
It sounds like everything’s going really well.

Dr Rad 52:45
It does. I mean, not, not, not the most impressive campaigning we’ve seen. There are no tunnels, unfortunately, hmm, but none other procedures have been broken, something, it’s something. Hmm, maybe a four, okay, four issues, all right, what’s our next category?

Dr G 53:03
Diplomacy

Dr Rad 53:05
Hmm, I feel like no, not at all.

Dr G 53:11
Okay, that’s a zero then easy peasy.

Dr Rad 53:14
Yeah.

Dr G 53:15
Expansion

Dr Rad 53:17
Well, yes. I mean, if capenna is, well, I don’t think appendix necessarily becoming part of Rome, per se, they’ve just made peace with Rome.

Dr G 53:26
Yeah, and it doesn’t sound like a territorial conquest. It just sounds like the usual pillaging, and yeah,

Dr Rad 53:34
like they’re not fighting really.

Dr G 53:35
Stop, please stop this.

Dr Rad 53:38
I’m sick of this, please just let us lie down

Dr G 53:40
Please I want to eat my olives

Dr Rad 53:43
Exactly.

Dr G 53:45
All right. The fourth category is virtus. Do we have any manly men demonstrating great masculinity?

Dr Rad 53:53
Kind of. I don’t feel like it really classifies of virtus, per se, but we do have, of course, the patrician senators basically scaring the plebeians into shutting up.

Dr G 54:09
I don’t think so.

Dr Rad 54:12
They intimidated into being quiet.

Dr G 54:15
That’s intimidation. Virtus, is the root from which we will get the word virtue eventually. So I’d hate to think that intimidation comes into the same sort of category.

Dr Rad 54:26
No, but they’re doing it like a manly way. They’re like, Hey, I have so many amazing honors to my name, and I’m such a cool dude, and I’m all patrician and stuff. What about it? You want to take me on? You want a piece of me? You want a piece of me?

Dr G 54:41
I’m just going to continue shaking my head, because everybody who listens to a podcast can understand a head shake.

Dr Rad 54:48
All right, fine.

Dr G 54:50
I think it’s a zero,

Dr Rad 54:51
Okay,

Dr G 54:53
All right, Okay, excellent. And finally, the citizen score. Is it a good time to be a Roman citizen? And I’m going to pre empt this and say, I don’t think so.

Dr Rad 55:02
No, you would think it would be the best of times, Dr, G, given that you just double the size of your city. But unfortunately, because you can’t live where you want, it’s not so good.

Dr G 55:14
Yes, no, this is unfortunate because, yes, Rome has achieved this great thing. You would expect some benefits to float with people from it, but instead, what we see is like you have to repay back the booty somehow, out of your own money, because I forgot the vow.

Dr Rad 55:30
And look, there’s definitely an undertone that Livy feels like the people are being a little spoiled, and that they’re exaggerating how bad things are, but you’ve got to admit that there’s obviously some truth to what is being said about them having to give stuff back,

Dr G 55:48
Exactly. And I think it’s debatable about whether, if you have to move somewhere away from your home in order to be a colonist somewhere else, that may or may not be a good thing, depending on your perspective

Dr Rad 56:00
Well, the Veuu thing – they’re keen on that they want to move today, because they already has nicer houses and nicer public buildings. They want to be in a better place, you know. So they’re quite happy to be colonists there. And apparently they can see it

It’s so close, I can smell it!

Exactly, yeah, right in front of their noses.

Dr G 56:23
It is very close, not gonna lie.

Dr Rad 56:26
So look, they do have tribunes of the plebs standing up for them, and they are putting up a fight. Does that count for anything?

Dr G 56:34
Well, and the fact that the it seems that Rome’s military exploits in this year haven’t been disastrous for the people who have had to enact them.

Dr Rad 56:42
Yeah?

Dr G 56:42
I think, yeah, that is often as good as it gets when you’re a Roman citizen. So I’d be inclined to maybe give it a five, like-

Dr Rad 56:51
Really? Oh my God, that’s like crazy generous. I thought it was like a three.

Dr G 56:57
I’m happy to be negotiated down. But yes, obviously it could be far worse.

Dr Rad 57:03
It could be worse. I feel like a four, because they’re definitely not getting their way. And there is that rumor that maybe some of the tribunes of the plebs have been bought off by the patricians, and that’s why they’re not able to 100% push this deal over the line.

Dr G 57:20
Ah, yes, that’s a good point. I hadn’t been thinking about that. Yes, okay,

Dr Rad 57:24
All right. Four, it is, all right. Dr, G, that means the Romans have ended up on a grand total of eight golden eagles. You would think-

Dr G 57:34
Wow

Dr Rad 57:35
they would have so much more after such a massive conquest. But no, once again, they have ruined it by fighting amongst themselves.

Dr G 57:44
They always find a way to let themselves down. I was like, Rome, you’ve got so much potential, just don’t let yourself down like this.

Dr Rad 57:51
Do you know what it is upsetting we didn’t get to talk about the women at all in that Partial Pick. They don’t factor into that at all. Well, it’s been so long, Dr G, so long since I talked about a woman.

Dr G 58:04
And it’s not like we got to talk about a woman. We got to talk about women

Dr Rad 58:09
Yeah, a nameless group of women who were probably invented to embarrass women who were real and living much later.

Dr G 58:17
Yes, I suspect so. I mean, that’s my concern, certainly from the later sort of evidence where we definitely have women being like, I am not paying your tax. Got to be kidding me, and you’re like, that sounds more historically accurate,

Dr Rad 58:34
All right. Dr G, well, I think we better leave Rome there reveling in its measly eight golden eagles, but in good news, it means my jewelry collection is somewhat restored.

Dr G 58:55
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources sound credits and transcript in our show notes. Over at partialhistorians.com we offer a huge thank you to you, if you’re one of our illustrious Patreon supporters, if you enjoy the show, we’d love your support in a way that works for you. Leaving a nice review really makes our day we’re on Ko-Fi for one or four ongoing donations or Patreon. Of course, our latest book, ‘Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire’, is published through Ulysses press. It is full of stories that the Romans probably don’t want you to know about them. This book is packed with some of our favorite tales of the colorful history of ancient Rome. Treat yourself or an open minded friend to Rome’s glories, embarrassments and most salacious claims with’Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire’.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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