121 Exploring Surfboards as Tools for Self-Discovery with Donald Brink

Podcast - SURF MASTERY

Is your surfboard truly helping you become a better surfer—or just keeping you comfortable?

In this episode, we explore a question that many surfers overlook: are you riding the board that suits your potential or simply what the surf industry has marketed to you? Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned surfer, learning how equipment shapes performance and self-discovery in the water can revolutionize your approach to surfing.

• Discover why changing boards regularly—even riding the "wrong" board—can massively accelerate your progression.

• Learn from Donald Brink’s radical experimentation with ultra-narrow surfboards and how it unveiled new layers of wave reading and board control.

• Understand the deep connection between board design, wave selection, and self-expression that transforms surfing from sport to personal art form.

Tune into this eye-opening conversation to challenge what you think you know about surfboards—and uncover the path to becoming the surfer you were meant to be.

http://www.brinksurf.com
https://www.instagram.com/donaldbrink/?hl=en
www.surfmastery.com

Key Points

• The importance of the surfing style over the type of surfboard was emphasized, highlighting the value of constantly changing boards to improve one's surfing skills.

• Donald Brink discussed the benefits of challenging oneself with difficult surfboards to discover deeper aspects of one's surfing and personal growth.

• The conversation touched on the idea that societal and industry influences might shape people's preferences in surfboards more than personal preference.

• Donald Brink shared his experience with creating and riding extremely narrow surfboards, which he found to be a profound and enlightening exercise in understanding his own surfing and design principles.

• The dimensions and unique features of Donald Brink's narrow surfboards were discussed, including the challenges and learnings from riding them.

• Donald Brink mentioned that Dane, a fellow surfer, showed interest in and eventually rode one of his narrow surfboards, taking it on a memorable trip to Iceland.

• The discussion explored the combination of narrowness with modern materials and design elements in surfboards, a concept Donald Brink is pioneering.

• The potential of narrow surfboards in wave pools was considered, with the suggestion that they could offer unique and advantageous surfing experiences.

Outline

Surfing Philosophy and Personal Growth

• Donald Brink emphasizes that the way one surfs is more important than the type of surfboard used.

• Donald discusses the value of constantly changing surfboards to challenge oneself and improve surfing skills.

• Donald shares personal experiences of riding very narrow and difficult-to-ride surfboards to discover more about oneself and improve surfing technique.

Surfboard Design and Preferences

• Donald and Michael discuss the influence of the surf industry on surfboard preferences, comparing it to the standardization of the Fender Stratocaster in the music industry.

• They debate whether surfboard preferences are truly personal or influenced by societal and industry standards.

• Donald mentions that professionals often use different types of surfboards outside of competition, indicating a divergence from industry-driven preferences.

Challenges and Learning Through Surfing

• Donald explains the benefits of riding difficult surfboards, even in challenging conditions, to gain deeper insights into one's surfing abilities and improve overall technique.

• He discusses the importance of recognizing one's limitations and frustrations as a means to identify areas for improvement.

• Donald shares his experience of building and riding extremely narrow surfboards, which he found to be a humbling and enlightening exercise.

Surfboard Specifications and Design

• Donald details the specifications of the narrow surfboards he has designed, including dimensions and unique design elements.

• He discusses the challenges and learnings from riding these boards, including the need for more rocker due to their narrowness.

• Donald mentions the interest of other surfers, like Dane, in trying these unique boards and the feedback received.

Surfing as Art or Sport

• The conversation touches on the philosophical question of whether surfing is an art, a sport, or both, with a promise to delve deeper into this topic in a future episode.

Transcription:

Donald Brink
Really, it's the way you surf is more important than what you ride. And so if you constantly change out your craft and realize that the common element or the common variable is your surfing, which hopefully is developing day by day with intrigue and aspiration, your surfing, you start to realize... I made these very narrow boards that were incredibly difficult to ride, and I rode them in—I don't like to call waves bad—but in very challenging conditions. And I fell in love with them. And the puzzle was complex, and yet it showed me so many...

Michael Frampton
Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. That was two quotes from part one of a long conversation I had with Donald Brink. Part two will be published next week. This will be Donald's third appearance on the podcast, first back in episode 42 and episode 76. So if you enjoy this and you want to go back, those are the numbers. I reached out to Donald to discuss, is surfing an art or a sport? And that will be in part two. It's an hour-long deep dive into that. But the first sort of 25 minutes of that conversation was a good catch-up and a dive into what Donald has been up to since we last spoke. And of course, his deep and philosophical thoughts about surfing and surfboard design. And as with every conversation with Donald, there's so many gold nuggets in here. Donald is a great thinker and an incredible surfboard shaper and designer. You can check out more from Donald at brinksurf.com—it's b-r-i-n-k surf.com—and of course at Donald Brink on Instagram. Did you hear the one with Aaron James?

Donald Brink
Another—okay—must have been.

Michael Frampton
Aaron James, episode 111 I think. The audio quality wasn't great from his end, but it's worth a listen because you'd love it. He's a philosopher and we just talked at the, you know, all about philosophy.

Donald Brink
You've interviewed him before? No? Okay.

Michael Frampton
Right?

Donald Brink
I remember there was somebody on philosophy. I'll look forward to that. The last one that comes to mind that I'm just remembering, maybe I'm missing one or two, but it was you discussing the timing of entering waves, jumping onto the board rather than paddling into it, and you realize they can push and pull that bandwidth of when you're actually taking off on the wave. I thought that was—I'd never heard it. It was just a passing comment to you, but I gleaned from that. I was like, it's really interesting to do that, to stand in the shallows and not paddle for waves as part of wave training.

Michael Frampton
For beginners, yeah. Whenever I take a beginner out, I say, what are you paddling for? You're standing in waist-deep water. Just jump because the wave's going so slow. If you wait till the wave hits the back of your board and you just jump forward a little bit, you're trimming and then you can—you don't have to paddle. That's how my kids play and naturally catch waves just by playing. And it takes the pressure off having to paddle. Because everyone, you know, that's the first thing that beginners complain: "My arms are so tired." And it's, well, save your arms for the pop-up.

Donald Brink
Right. Yeah. I've been spending a little bit of time and sat some lectures with Rob Case, the surf paddling instructor. And I'm sure you guys all know his work. And if you haven't looked at it, I would encourage one to explore that because most of surfing really is paddling. Yeah. And he's the specialist in the paddling field. And the short story is, it was just like being able to ask him questions. And what they tap into is intuition of what they've learned, both in formal study and in the hypothesis of studying what's actually going on when we are paddling or taking off on a wave in particular. And surfboards are very inefficient at moving across or through—generally rather—in water. And yeah, just like the studies just show how radical it is going from submerged to now planing and therefore now standing and then surfing. We're swimming at best for most of the time.

Michael Frampton
I know. Yeah, I've had Rob on the show a few times and I've done his course. It was amazing. But that's why I surf a boat nowadays. It's easier.

Donald Brink
Love you. Yeah, it's... There's nothing wrong with that, and I still think surfing comes down to preference. And it's a word someone used in the water one day. You know, like some people ask you stuff in the water. It happens to me now and again. I try and be, like, not rude, but really hyper-focused. And somebody said, "What are you riding today?" And it was actually a very traditional-looking board, which they were surprised at. Because I've been known to ride—I'm always testing and trying new things, right? And I was like, yeah, it's just really good to palate cleanse and ride a standard shortboard from time to time. And I do it because it keeps my surfing honest and my design mind honest to be like, well, this is supposed to work. Most people prefer this and I know you can get it. And it's—sometimes I didn't make that board. So there's zero judgment on what I could or should have done. And they were like, yep, that's really good. It's nice that you're doing that. I think it's a good responsibility. At the end of the day, it's just down to preference. Everyone knows what they prefer in a board. They usually don't know what they need. And it hit me, like, really hard—that statement. I was like, this really is down to preference. Like there's no... There's things I know that I like in a board and you don't really want to impose that onto other people as a suggestion, even at times.

Michael Frampton
But do you think that is really people's preference? I don't. Because I think we chatted last time. It's like the Fender Strat is like people's preference in guitar. Well, that's only because it happens to be first. It was like the first guitar that was really well made and all the studio musicians used it. And then it became a standard. Whereas with surfboards, I think it's just—that's just what the surf industry pushed on people. And that's what the pros were riding. I don't know if it's a preference because of society or whether it's an actual literal preference. And I saw Steph Gilmore in the water surfing good waves. She wasn't on a performance shortboard. She was on a fish. And then when you see pros outside of competition, they're not usually on performance shortboards.

Donald Brink
This is a great point, and I think you're right. And I think that preference could be perceived as being accepted. So this person's comment—and I know this guy fairly well—he doesn't want to be seen on anything else. So he would prefer to endear a Stratocaster on stage in this example, right? And yet a hollow-bodied Telecaster might be better for what they're playing. And that's a great point because, yeah, that's what we've been marketed to and that's what the biggest companies are consistently marketing or manufacturing, right? It's still a valid point though because what he prefers is important to him. And that's where your surfing is your own. And that's both the biggest blessing and comes with a huge responsibility if you want to cultivate it. And once you realize it's up to you, as long as you're not in anyone's way, you can have a lot of fun in the sea. That's the golden rule and it's taken years to really get as succinct as that—like, be in the right part of the wave doing the right thing and not being in anyone's way—and you are welcome. Fish.

Michael Frampton
Amphibian, say.

Donald Brink
Should I?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, I agree with all of that. I do think it's a little bit short-sighted when you see people, if their preference comes from the surf industry or whatever. They just maybe haven't thought it through. Hey look, I'll put my hand up. When it's six foot and barreling, yeah, I want to be on a performance shortboard. The rocker fits the wave. I'm more likely to come out of a barrel, of course. But how often is the surf like that, really?

Donald Brink
Right.

Michael Frampton
So it's—

Donald Brink
Okay, let's expand this conversation then to... Is it worth trying to ride something that's really difficult to ride? Because I see most people only riding things that are easier to ride. Ciao. I challenge myself to ride very difficult surfboards sometimes. And I don't have as good a session. But because my surfing is my own and what I'm getting out of it is what I'm willing to get out of it. And sometimes you go really deep in trying to find... Parts of yourself, really. Or parts of the wave that then bring out these joys that you've been searching for. So when the waves are good, it's like, are you willing to waste good waves trying to ride something different? And it could be to prove a point. Well, that's now a little immature, but if it's at the expense of searching the depths of oneself within surfing, I find that very interesting and not often seen, shown, or even talked about. And I do think it's a developing category of what surfing is to somebody. Because it's... it's yours to yourself. Okay.

Michael Frampton
Yes, you're right. I mean, if you want to take even a small-wave performance shortboard out when the waves aren't great—and maybe you'd have more fun and catch more waves on a hybrid or a fish—you want to go out there and challenge yourself and keep the board on rail and... yeah. I mean, that kind of board, almost if you're planing and going straight, it's going to slow down and you're going to bog. But if you're staying close to the whitewater and surfing rail to rail, you're going to have... find that feeling. There is a thing—there's a detail that you've got to realize, listeners—is you might go down to Lower Trestles, let's say, for example, and let's say it's shoulder-high Lower Trestles. You're going to—it might look like a slow, soft wave. But the way that the water is drawing off the bottom, the way the current and the bathymetry, the way that the swell angles in towards you a little bit actually makes the wave a lot more rippable than it looks. But if you were to go down to San O or Doheny and the waves are bigger, that might look more powerful from the beach, but you're going to—and you take the same board out—you're going to find it a lot harder to surf a bigger wave at a softer break than you would a smaller wave at a more rippable break. So learning to look at those details of the refraction of the swell, the way that water's drawing off the bottom, will help you choose what sort of surfboard to take out as well. So there's a fine line between... what's your skill level, what's the wave like, what are your intentions to the way to surf. But I agree with you. If you want to challenge yourself and become a better surfer, yeah. A board with a bit more rocker is going to force you to—it only really works if it's transitioning from rail to rail.

Donald Brink
Well, that's one example, but extend it even further. Like, what if you rode a really flat-rockered board that's too small for you or a really big board? If you constantly just change the variable of the board—because everyone, it's kind of intuitive really, you'd think I'd be so into the board, and yet it's like, I get to make these things all day and I love it—but really, it's the way you surf is more important than what you ride. And so if you constantly change out your craft and realize that the common element or the common variable is your surfing, which hopefully is developing day by day with intrigue and aspiration—your surfing—you start to realize which parts you need to work on, which parts you're really good at. And that's what—as succinct as I can be—it's are you in the right part of the wave, doing the right thing and not being in somebody's way. And switching up boards, no matter what the condition, it shows itself best when you're riding the wrong board on the wrong day. Because you start to realize, I should have been over there on that wave. And until you're frustrated by that, you won't know that that's where you need and want to be and continue to strive to be there, right? So the wrong lines because your board wouldn't let you is really helpful too. So you're wasting waves to learn. I don't know any better. It's a long exercise, but that's what life is. And to share within life is part of that.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, I agree with that as well. I mean, when I first bought a longboard, my shortboarding improved tenfold just because I had to learn how to surf a much bigger board than I was used to. Look at the wave differently and predict it more. And then you jump back on a shortboard, you know, wow. Thank you. So yeah. Well, I mean, how far can you push that? How ridiculous of a surfboard can you ride? And, you know, is there a surfboard that would improve your surfing more than a different surfboard?

Donald Brink
100%. I set out on that question. I try and be really honest about what works and what doesn't work. And there's a lot of boards I've built that do not work. And I had to—you have to learn that, right? And within that endless mystery of what works and what doesn't and how hydrodynamics come into play, I set out on a goal to see how much feedback I could get out of a board that I built that was essentially very difficult to ride, and yet the sensory download from a wave ride, if I could pull it off, would be the highest. And I landed up on—it would be the narrowest board possible. Because I think a lot of boards can be most easily, comfortably designed as to going wide, right? So I set out to do the exact opposite and see how far I could push it. And it was one of the most humbling and now enlightening exercises I've ever set out on. And yeah, it has changed my life because of these effects. And now even the designs within all the other boards... but what it did was let me understand what surfing is to me, and which parts I enjoy. And the best parts were—it was nothing I was trying to impose or imply on anybody else, except I knew the learnings would live on into the rest of my work or work I get to do for somebody else. So to wrap this whole thing up, it would be—I made these very narrow boards that were incredibly difficult to ride and I rode—I don't like to call waves bad—but in very challenging conditions. And I fell in love with them. And the puzzle was complex, and yet it showed me so many inherent flaws that were very easily fixable, but you couldn't really feel them because they were muted or disguised in the designs of comfortable boards. And what it did was—I could walk away from that in my surfing shoes definitely improved. And now you can just jump on them—any board around the world—and have fun, which to me really is the goal. Can you travel without boards and just ride one you find for a hundred bucks? And now you don't have a bag for you and you have the most fun. Do you know what I mean? Like, you want to have the ability to be able to ride anything, anywhere in the sea, and be able to be safe and respectable and just have fun with that relationship with you and the ocean. And that, to me, has always been an "any board" policy. So that's what happened to me and gosh, it was rewarding. I haven't shared or shown any of them yet because what happened was—it was so profound that I was like, man... So I started collecting them. I think I'm on board 11 right now. And I will present them as a show in a series. I'd love to do an art show, actually, because together they will make sense because you can see the lineage. Yeah, things have just kept popping up and there's attention to other projects right now, but it doesn't matter. It's forever green. So... within the next year, I'm sure.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. How narrow are we talking?

Donald Brink
Well, the first board I did was 12 and 3/8.

Michael Frampton
Your foot? 11?

Donald Brink
Specifically. And so you ended up having to ride both toes forward so that you could get a cleaner trim. There was just—there was so much learning on it. And the entire board was made just off-cycle, upcycled offcut pieces. It was such a fun thing. But the last iteration has been—and the first asymmetrical one—they've all been symmetrical to stay pure to not have too many variables within the design elements. It's like, okay, this is an asymmetry doing its thing. It's just design problems. The last one is 6'5.5" by 14 7/8" by 2 3/8"—two and a half-ish. And that board's a brute. See, fantastic. I did take it to a wave this season, got a few waves, got absolutely blasted on a few, but it was like I had to feel it in juice with warm water if I really believed in it, you know? Definitely turned some heads, but yeah, that was not the point. The point is trying to learn who you are and how design works. And it was so—you get so used to it and so comfortable on those boards that other boards actually feel so clunky and tubby and slow. It's... it's just interesting is all it is.

Michael Frampton
So that board—the last iteration of it—does it have more of a traditional performance rocker as well?

Donald Brink
Well, all the rules and rules—preconceived numbers—are out the window. So the rocker numbers would be—they're ill-quoted because the board's so narrow and so straight for so long. Thank you... The end points, like, you actually have to put so much more rocker in the board because it's not in the outline. But when you come off the bottom, the board gets onto rail so much sooner, 'cause you don't have a big catamaran, so to speak, that you can fit more rocker in. So you end up surfing way more curve. It's like those old '90s shortboards—were super rocked up. But then it's like, they were narrower. You see the relationship between rail line, rocker, volume, plan shape, and overall wetted surface. It's just fun. Wow.

Michael Frampton
Have Dane or Pat been interested in surfing this type of board?

Donald Brink
Yeah, Dane... Dane ran into me at the beach one day and he's always an—I mean, we are such good friends now. It's such a joy to work alongside him and just talk surfing and share boards sometimes. But he looked in the back of the van and he was like, "What's that?" And he was so... it was version two he saw. Because like I said, I haven't shown or shared any of these. It's been a self-guarded exploration. It was a cold day. We were down at Santa, and he just threw on a towel, pulled on a pair of trunks, and just jumped in. He just paddled it straight out and caught three waves, which, to be honest, he didn't surf very well. And the feedback loop of where to stand is learning. And once you know where to stand, then you start putting your surfing together. But he came in and he's like, "Just build me one." And I did build him one of those. So his was number three of those in the series. And yeah, he ended up taking it on a trip and—yeah, it's kind of a memorable story—but pushed it in some very big, incredible waves in Iceland of all places. The only board he took as well. It's such an honor. But yeah, there's some reward to be had. And yet it's still in its infant stages.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, I'm keen to... I'm sure you'll release some photos and footage or something along this. If you can do an art show, I mean.

Donald Brink
It just doesn't make sense out of context. Even this conversation is all silly. I guess if you're listening to this and you're like, what the hell is this guy on about? My point is, change up your boards and challenge yourself. You'll find out what your surfing is. And you can transpose what you need to work on into any board, and you'll learn quicker and go further faster. I do like narrow boards. And this project will see the light of day in context of its growth. It makes more sense than just talking about a narrow board now. But it's...

Michael Frampton
An extreme that I haven't seen been explored. I'm exploring extremes. I love my 11-foot glider. That's extremely long, extremely heavy, extremely thick, extremely straight rails. Right. And then you've got it—the people, we've gone as wide as we can, the Potato from Firewire. It doesn't get any more wide and piggy than that. We've gone as short as we can...

Donald Brink
Right.

Michael Frampton
We've gone thin. But no one's—this is pioneering stuff, maybe.

Donald Brink
I actually—it's funny—I started off with trying to be as high as I can arrive for the sensation, like I said. And then what's funny is you actually land up in these thought trails. And before long you'll land up and you start looking at what was essentially the start of it all—was the alaia—because the trees were only that wide. And so when you look at those Hawaiian olas—and I just did make a hollow wooden version just to honor the thoughts of the original ola—I actually haven't ridden that board yet. But within context of the show and the movement of design, I was like, wow. I mean, I think they were designing within parameters of what materials they had. Skinny trees, not many of them. And yet the designs were hydrodynamically sound for the time and therefore would hold up today because water doesn't change. But yeah, it's kind of all been done before, but no... I think you just don't stop exploring the parts that are difficult. And they fascinate me—not to be right—but you find yourself and who you are within those things, you know.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, but the narrowness hasn't been combined with modern materials, volume, buoyancy, concave, rocker, which is obviously what you're doing.

Donald Brink
Yeah, for sure. It is fun. And you see parts of the modern shortboard—you pick it up and it starts after a few minutes of just holding it and being around them. They stop looking odd and you kind of—they get comfortable within your mind very quickly. Maybe I'm just around them so much, but I've seen people react that way and turn the reaction into a response. And it's... times one's in this little—your reaction. Yeah, it's funny.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I can imagine it's... and it's an extremely responsive, touchy board when you first get it going.

Donald Brink
My two cents to date on why I don't ride them all the time is—they get really boring unless the waves are past, like... they don't even have to be big. They can be small and somewhat powerful as fun. But once it gets past shoulder-high, you can... you can get out of second and third and into fourth and even sometimes fifth gear. And it's incredible. You get lost in time and space. But anything smaller than that, you just can't get out of second gear. You know how much the board has to give. And you just start frustrating yourself. And these weren't like world-class good waves, right? In terms of a general comment, they were more just—there was enough room on which to move. And unpowerful waves that nobody wanted on those days were all kinds of fun at speeds that were unfathomable on any other board. So there is room for it, I think. Yeah, not for many. Laughs Yeah. Yeah, it's fun.

Michael Frampton
Well, when you're surfing from rail to rail...

Donald Brink
Yeah, if you can isolate a rail and have room enough to stay on it for as long as you possibly want to or can...

Michael Frampton
The width of the surfboard is irrelevant anyway. Isn't that really?

Donald Brink
That's where I think the gearing comes in. It's like, man, you just start going so fast. You're drawing these long turns over sections and without losing speed because your wetted surface is so much smaller. So if you're having to keep weaving and you're doing it so quickly that—I wouldn't say it's boring, it's just less efficient than you know what it feels like. As soon as you get on the rail, you can just stay on there. So if you've got room to be able to do that, you start doing it. That's all you want to do. And because you can on the narrow board, it's like, man, well, right. That's what I'm going to do. Yeah, I'll tell him.

Michael Frampton
I imagine it going well in a wave pool, perhaps.

Donald Brink
I haven't been to a pool since I started making these. I've thought the same thing over and over. Same thing. It's not a huge wave, but it's a focused curl. Yeah, I wouldn't see why it wouldn't go well. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
When it's very... predictable and consistent.

Donald Brink
Right. I think you'd want a bigger pool, to be honest. I mean... I wonder if you'd get better lines. I think you'd draw better. And you're not taking off into the tube, which is nice. You're rolling in. So that would be really... of value there. That'd be advantageous. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Well, you mentioned them being art. Which segues us into what I wanted to talk about, which was—is surfing an art or a sport, or both? Thank you so much for tuning in. Make sure you subscribe and listen to next week's episode, part two with Donald Brink: "Is Surfing an Art or a Sport—or Both?" We heard a little bit about that in last week's episode with Tony Roberts. He's on the sports side. For more surfing podcast episodes, there is a huge back catalogue. And of course, if you want more tips, some free PDFs and advice, etc., go tosurfmastery.com. Until next week, keep surfing.

121 Exploring Surfboards as Tools for Self-Discovery with Donald Brink (part 1)

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.