332: Can Faith and Science Truly Coexist?

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Welcome to out of the Question, a podcast that looks behind some common questions and uncovers the question behind the question.

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While providing real solutions for biblical world and life View.

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Your host is Andrea Schwartz, a teacher and mentor and founder of the Chalcedon Teacher Training Institute.

Andrea Schwartz (00:21)
SIGHT is a recent American biographical drama about physician Ming Wang, a Chinese immigrant to the United States who became a renowned eye surgeon. It is based on Wang’s 2016 autobiography entitled From Darkness to A Journey From Hardship to Healing. My husband and I recently watched this film and although we liked it very much, I kept having a sneaking suspicion that there was much more to the story than was depicted in the movie. Since the film was based on Dr. Wang’s autobiography, I quickly ordered the book and confirmed my suspicions. Dr. Wang’s story is one of a man’s desire to become a doctor from his youth, beating the odds, as they say, against his early life and upbringing in atheist communist China in the 60s and 70s, then coming to the US and getting his PhD in physics and his MD from Harvard Medical School and eventually becoming a citizen. Ming Wang was and is a driven person, but it was only when he encountered the Lord Jesus Christ that his entire life, skills and opportunities came into sharper focus. After finishing his autobiography, I went to his website and contacted him there, requesting an interview. In less than 24 hours I received a personal affirmative response. Thanks for Joining me today, Dr. Wang.

Dr. Ming Wang (01:53)
Thank you Andrea. I appreciate the opportunity.

Andrea Schwartz (01:56)
And just as an aside, I wasn’t intending to say this, but Dr. Wang’s family had to shelter last evening as four tornadoes went through his area in Nashville, Tennessee. And I’m so glad he’s still here, not only for the opportunity to talk with him, but also because of the work that he he does. So Again, thank you Dr. Wing.

Dr. Ming Wang (02:20)
Thank you Andrea.

Andrea Schwartz (02:21)
Now, while we will give relevant content from your life in our discussion today, I don’t want people to neglect reading or listening to your book. And although I found the film very engaging in retrospect, there were some additions and omissions that I know are often used to consolidate a story. But I found your account in your book to give true appreciation and credit to the providence and foreordination of God. I know you’ve told your story numerous times, but give the highlights for my listeners, please.

Dr. Ming Wang (02:56)
Thank you Andrea. You know, as a scientist, one of the things we tend to do after have acquired certain knowledge about science and technology is get our head too big, think we can do everything. My autobiography From Darkness to Sight is not only the journey of many of our Foundations, patients, some blind orphan children and some other adult patients. Their remarkable journey from darkness to sight, physically getting physical vision, but also how at the same time, these patients and life itself that I’ve gone through have also opened my eyes and brought me out of my darkness to light spiritually. I grew up in China during the time called cultural revolution. From 1966-76, the government in China shut down all universities and colleges of entire nation and forcefully deported to some of the poorest part of the country and condemn each one of the high school graduates to lifetime of poverty and hard Labor. So over 10 years of cultural Revolution, by shutting down all universities and colleges of entire China, they send away to labor camp for life 20 million young people. So I called that in 1974, I was 14, I finished my junior high and I was not allowed to go to high school as I was going to be deported just like 20 million others for life, for hard labor.

Dr. Ming Wang (04:41)
In order to escape that devastating fate of being sent away to labor camp, I started learning a music instrument called Chinese violin, Er Hu, which is depicted in the film Sight, and also started learning dancing. Because I found out if I could play a music instrument and dance, I could get into the government song and dance troupe, therefore avoid being sent away to labor camp. That did not work and I was going to be sent away to labor camp for sure. Then 1976 rolled around. Cultural Revolution ended after 10 years. China reopened all of its colleges, first time in 10 years. And I had to jump ahead from 9th grade graduate to 12th grade, directly into 12th grade and compete against other 12th graders for the 1% chance of less than 1% chance of getting to college. Because my parents did not want me to go through the normal high school because they were afraid the government could change their mind again and shut down college again for the following year, for another 10 years. The point is that sometimes living in a free country such as America, here we could take the freedom that we have for granted.

Dr. Ming Wang (06:00)
But in a country at the time when there was no freedom, when freedom came briefly, people do appreciate and want to take full advantage of it because freedom may not be available again. So with my parents help, I worked really hard, as you saw in the film site, eventually got into university to study laser physics. And in 1982, with $50, I came to America, could not speak the language very much English and did not know anyone. But I was happy because I was free. You know, in the film Andrea God’s Not Dead, the Chinese student who came from China to America to study surviving China’s Cultural Revolution. That Chinese student character in the movie God’s Not Dead is inspired by my life story. So just like that student, I came to America. I was an atheist. I was interested only in science. I was not interested in anything else because before I came, I couldn’t even study to be free to study science. And it was in America where I not only found freedom, but also I have found faith in Jesus Christ.

Andrea Schwartz (07:21)
Let me ask you a question, because I think this is important both in the movie and in the book. You come from a very strong family, a family that was willing to give up tremendous amounts to even give you an opportunity to. To the point. And this is an amusing part of the story as far as I’m concerned, that when they were shielding you from having to be deported, they would sometimes sneak you into classes so you could learn by just, you know, auditing the class and such. But there was this strong desire. How do you reconcile the fact that in an atheist country, you have such strong family ties?

Dr. Ming Wang (08:02)
Great question. I think the family. The fact that parents love their children. They want to do everything possible to help their children so that their children could have a future that probably transcends culture, ethnicity, race, religion across humankind. It’s a universal love, our parents towards their children. However, in the atheist country, which China still largely is, that desire is mainly for, shall we say, worldly success, if you will. You know, getting a job, get a good education and have a happy life. That is that dimension. It’s important. But I’ve come to realize after coming to America, the normal societal or modern society’s criteria of success, meaning having a job and successful, is only part of it. It’s actually. It’s less important part of it. The more important part of my life has been in the past many decades, as depicted in the film God’s Not Dead, where, you know, the student went from atheist to a believer. That student, inspired by my life, that I find something even more important than the worldly success that is a life that following Jesus Christ and developed the ultimate purpose for my life beyond what I normally do in my job.

Andrea Schwartz (09:37)
What I can tell you in reading your book, more so than in the film, I live in California and there is a substantial Asian community, Chinese community here. And what people often see are people who are so driven to succeed. So the students here from Chinese families have the higher SAT scores. They excel in music not unlike you. And it’s all because they want to bring honor to their family and success to themselves. Do you think that it’s easy for people to misconstrue the mindset because they don’t understand the kind of oppression and tyranny that a lot of these people, either their parents or their grandparents experienced.

Dr. Ming Wang (10:28)
You mean misconstrue from the Westerner perspective?

Andrea Schwartz (10:32)
Yes.

Dr. Ming Wang (10:33)
Yeah, you are right that it is often sometimes not understood completely from people outside the Asian community. The motivation, the drive. Why is these Asian families so driven and you know, tiger mom and drive their kids to study so hard and excel in school that such a all consuming drive for the kids and for the parents, for their kids. Of course it’s for better life as any other race, ethnicity, people. But. But even beyond that, that is very often these Asian families have a background, whether their parents directly or their parents parents have suffered, have lived through societies that did not have very much at all in the way of freedom or material well being or opportunity. And so these Asian families, many of them just on my own, my parents very driven and have inspired me, imprinted me starting very young age to work hard and had a lot to do with the fact that many of these Asian families did not have much in the past and they appreciate so much more what they have now.

Andrea Schwartz (11:55)
Okay, so let’s go back to you. Before you came to the US you had an interest in medicine, both your parents were physicians and you also had an interest in physics. So when you came to the US those two interests combined. Talk a little bit about that.

Dr. Ming Wang (12:13)
I always wanted to be a doctor just like my father. You may think that, you know, being a doctor in China during those days, during Cultural Revolution is a well paying job. It actually is not. What I’m about to tell you and your listeners, Andre, is going be shocking. My dad was a doctor and my mom a teacher. Their combined salaries, both of them combined salaries every month was only US$15 combined salaries. So it’s like how could anyone live on that? It is extremely poor and everybody was poor in China during Cultural Revolution. But I wanted to be a doctor not because of my father is wealthy, is because I saw how he took care of his patients as a kid. Because we didn’t have telephone, we did not have bathroom, we did not have running water in our house and we didn’t have kitchen. Just one room, everything’s in that room. And no telephone, as I said. So very often that we will be eating dinner at little table and usually dinner consists of only one or two dish, you know, rice and one vegetable. That’s it. Often the door, someone would be, somebody will be knocking on the door.

Dr. Ming Wang (13:31)
And we have zero idea who that was. Because we have no telephone. People cannot make canonic appointment. So when we open the door very often it was a patient of my father just showed up saying, Dr. Wang, I have some questions about my health and we just have to put our dinner aside. And my father started seeing these patients and taking care of them. So that dedication to helping people, taking care of folks imprinted me at a very young age. And I want to be like him, be a doctor. So after I come to America, first I studied laser physics because I studied in universities in science in China and then came to America. So I got enrolled at University of Maryland for laser physics, PhD, which I did, did finish that, and finished postdoc at MIT at age 26. I was a laser physicist. Then I realized the rapid development of technology in ophthalmology. That laser is transforming the eye care, eye surgeries. And also as I depict in the book, I met a patient who was born blind and all, she had never seen. So when I asked her then, what does red mean to you or blue mean to you?

Dr. Ming Wang (14:50)
She told me that red means something warm and fluffy and blue something cold and slippery. So I realized that for someone who never had sight or could not see, they lose a big part of human experience. And so I decided I’m going to use my PhD laser physics training and become a medical doctor in ophthalmology in eye surgery so that I can combine my technological training and PhD in laser physics with an MD. Then I can be a unique laser eye surgeon who can bring an extra level of technology and advancement to help folks who are living in darkness. And helping bring them out of darkness is probably the most exciting thing one can possibly do.

Andrea Schwartz (15:42)
You know, it’s interesting. I’ve always told people that one of the most fascinating things for anybody is to teach someone how to read. Because those black dots on the page go from meaning nothing to suddenly meaning whatever the author wanted it to mean. So as you’re exploring and you eventually got your MD from Harvard Medical School, as I said, now you’re in a position to tackle the cases that other people either couldn’t or wouldn’t. What made the combination of your PhD in physics and your MD, who were you able to help that previously people were not able to help?

Dr. Ming Wang (16:23)
Great question, Andrea. If you look, if we look at the modern medicine and science in the 21st century, compare with medicine 100 years ago, the transforming trend as what’s happening in medicine is the increasing importance of technology. 100 years ago, if you had a headache. And the doctor said, take aspirin and call me 8:00 in the morning. And very little thing the doctor could do. Today in medicine, technology has really literally leapfrogged us into the next stage in molecular biology, genetic engineering, stem cell research, in robotic medicine, now in artificial intelligence, laser technology really rapidly change the way we treat diseases and open the possibilities of treating new diseases. Now at this juncture, there’s a problem, that is all doctors have gone to medical school, so they have got very good training in biology, pharmacology, physiology, medicine. But almost none of the doctors, very few that into medicine, got MD degree from medical school, will have a comparable amount of time to study another half of medicine, which is technology. So my training in the other half, having a PhD also in laser physics in addition to MD, it’s allowed me to go into some of the difficult to treat or nearly impossible to treat human eye conditions, utilizing my strong training in technology, in this case laser physics, to really open up the treatment possibilities in those.

Dr. Ming Wang (18:19)
So, for example, I’ll give you two examples. One, all of us, you and me, Andrea, and all of your listeners, doesn’t matter who you are. As a human being going through our lives at some point, inescapably, we are affected by these five human prescription eye conditions. Nearsightedness, which is myopia, Farsightedness, which is a hyperopia, astigmatism. Sometimes people say, what is astigmatism? Dr. Wang? Astigmatism simply means your eyeball is shaped like American football rather than basketball. So you see things always elongated and distorted with astigmatism. Number four, presbyopia, which is over age 45, increasing difficulty reading up close, and finally, cataracts. These are five human eye conditions that all of us are affected. For the longest time we could not treat, for example, astigmatism, and we certainly could not treat presbyopia. The oldeyes, if you will, over age 45, reading difficulty up close, or try to get rid of reading glasses, that was not possible. In fact, up until a few years ago, we could not treat the presbyopia, the reading difficulty over age 45. Somebody comes to talk to me, say, Dr. Wang, do you have anything for me? I’m getting older, I have to push things further and further to read.

Dr. Ming Wang (19:47)
Could you help me? Since we couldn’t help, say, Johnny the patient. I used to tell my patient, I said, johnny, you’re getting old. It’s not your eye problem. Because I couldn’t fix it. I said, you’re getting older. The reason you have to push things further and further away to read is because your arm’s getting shorter. And they say, oh, doctor, one relay. So what is that diagnosis called? And I said, well, it’s called short arm syndrome. And they said, really? So can you treat it? I said, yeah, you come to me, I will pull your arm out for about extra 2 inches and then take care of it. But now we don’t have to extend your arms anymore. We can have a technology called forever young lens can actually get rid of not only your distant vision glasses, but also your reading glasses. You know, living in Nashville, Tennessee, I have my share of my patients in music industry, like Dolly Parton, Charlie Daniels, for example, Charlie Daniels, for example, before he passed away, I did his eye surgery when he was in his 60s. And I told Charlie, I said, I’ve gotten rid of your distance glasses and I have permanently, permanently got rid of your reading glasses as well.

Dr. Ming Wang (20:57)
And Charlie goes, so you mean Dr. Wang, I could be 99 years old and my vision will still be this good that you just restored. I feel like I’m 25. I say, yes, the rest of your body may get older, but not your eyes. That’s why it’s called forever young lens technology. So these technologies open up. For example, you say, is that everybody using it? No. Forever young lens, for example, it’s only used by less than 1%. Less than 1% of United States eye surgeons today, only less than 1%, 99% are not using these cutting edge technologies. So not only I’ve been able to help develop and I’ve been part of the research team in helping developing, but also I want to help the doctors. 99% of them did not have the opportunity to study laser physics in depth as I did. So I have also been teaching. I have published 10 textbooks in ophthalmological eye surgery. Technology aspect to help the surgeons around the world to improve their weak area, which is technology. I want the 99% of surgeons who are not using these top technologies to quickly adapt and learn because we want to offer, all of us want to offer the best technology to our patients.

Dr. Ming Wang (22:19)
That’s an example. The other example we can talk about in the context of faith in our upcoming discussion, how the extra technology training in laser physics also have helped me in that case to help blind orphan children who are in darkness.

Andrea Schwartz (22:36)
And again, I want people to read your book because I think it’s. I found it hard to get put down because I felt like by the end of the book, we’d become old friends, and I knew a lot about you. And so there was a lot of work you did with children born blind or cruelly abused by parents and became blind as a result. But I have to tell you, the thing that actually affected me the most, and this is one of the problems I had with the film, because it didn’t bring out your ethics as much as your book did. In the film, they have you in a room somewhere, seeing a preborn child in a lab in formaldehyde or something, and you come to the conclusion that children in the womb don’t scar. And so I know this is true in terms of your book, that you realize that if you somehow could use amniotic fluid or something of that, that you could create a contact lens that might help after eye surgery, that people wouldn’t have the normal scarring.

Dr. Ming Wang (23:36)
Right.

Andrea Schwartz (23:37)
What the movie didn’t depict. And that’s when I was. Was going through the book and I went. I knew there was something more to this story. You knew that embryonic cells could be used to do this. But your ethics as a Christian said we cannot destroy human life or use human life that has been destroyed. And I imagine you got a lot of pushback from fellow scientists whose ethics were probably, no, you do whatever you do for science. But I think it was almost 10 years and you refused to disobey God in order to obey God. And that’s probably the biggest takeaway from your book for me.

Dr. Ming Wang (24:22)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. First of all, the book is 10 times stronger from Christian faith perspective than the movie. And the movie actually was written by wonderful Christian director Andrew Hyatt, who directed the film Paul Apostle Christ. When he took on this project, he intentionally tried to kind of soften down the faith perspective because his goal is trying to get more people, including skeptics, atheists, wants to see a movie, tell the story as is, with less preaching. However, the book itself that I wrote is much stronger, 10 times stronger from faith perspective. And what you just talked about is exactly the central theme of the book. Exactly central theme. That at one time there are lots of stories of these kids and patients, our foundation being the help over the decades to come from darkness to light physically. But even more important, more important is that these medical advances that we have been able to be obedient and we be able to listen to God, we’d be able to advanced science, but at the same time, they’re safeguarding our moral ethical principles and the Christian principles about the sacredness of life. So that is exactly the Central, the golden part of the book, my life story.

Dr. Ming Wang (25:54)
In this case, the issue affects not just me, but also actually affects the world in a very big way. Today, for example, Pew studies have shown other kids entering college these days in America, 100 kids entering college, going to church as freshmen. By the time they finish college four years later, 75 out of 100 kids have left church. It is an existential crisis as far as I’m concerned for us as Christians because these young people are the future, our future. So we got to study, we got to figure out why. Why is it young people are exiting Christian faith, especially in academia, universities, right in such a big number. I feel because I’m a scientist and a Christian both that I realize is because of the rapid development of science itself that people are studying genetic engineering, you know, human genome, artificial intelligence. ChatGPT. They feel that they do not. Some young people feel that they don’t need Christ, they don’t need it. The science is sufficient and to help, to get a job and to help. However, my book, the essence of my book as you pointed out, is about faith and science conflict and what does God want us to do, right, to advance science, at the same time protecting life.

Dr. Ming Wang (27:22)
That I have come to realize that which is the essence of my book is that science is important. It’s necessary, you know, it’s the tools. You cannot be lazy. You got to learn those, you know, knowledge, scientific, technology. But science is just tools. It’s just necessary, but it’s not sufficient to have a uplifting life. That the sufficient part is a purpose. What are you going to use those science tools for? And after I became a Christian, I’ve been praying is that yes, God put me through, you know, let me go through those sufferings in China so that I appreciate more what I have in America today. But also all these years of studying two doctor degrees, one PhD in laser physics, one MD in medicine, what is it God you want me to do all these studies? I’ve gone to school, Andrea, believe it or not, 31 years.

Andrea Schwartz (28:16)
No, I believe you.

Dr. Ming Wang (28:18)
Yeah, whoever. And then what is God you want me to do that’s specific for you? And so much praying and living through my life and going up and down, many failures as you saw in the book. I realized God want me to use my scientific training, hard earned medical technology training to help those who need the most help, which are blind orphan children. So that’s a purpose. That what I’m going to use the scientific now this sense the science is necessary but not sufficient. The sufficient Part is the purpose. We’re going to use the science tool and also this understanding the rapid development of science and technology, such as ChatGPT, AI, while it’s wonderful, those technologies, but it could also be disastrous. In fact, the destructive power of artificial intelligence, not properly guided, could be 1 million times more destructive than atomic bomb. So I’ve come to realize that not only science is told, faith is the purpose, but also at the time of rapid science and technology development, today we need more Christ, not less, because we need faith to guide our scientific research so that the science will produce positive benefit to humankind rather than destruction.

Dr. Ming Wang (29:44)
So now my purpose, writing the book From Darkness to Sight and in some limited way that, you know, made into movie, is to talk to these young people to help them realize that you’re studying science at technology, in universities. Good. You cannot be lazy. You got to, you know, to really be good in those scientific. But that’s only part of it and that’s only the tools. And you need more Christ, not less, because more than ever before, you need faith in Christ to guide your moral, ethical, faith principles, to guide your research so that your science can truly bring benefit rather than destruction to humankind. So in this case, lots of young people think, oh, okay, but what if the science and faith get into conflict? You know, stem cell embryonic research demonstrate tremendous potential to treating human diseases. And you’re absolutely right, Andrea. Some atheist scientists say, I don’t care. I’m going to use these, you know, embryonic cells to, I’m treating patients, I’m helping them. So I have a noble goal. But what I’ve come to realize that God does want us to do research, does want to improve the quality of life, but at the same time, God also want us to preserve life.

Dr. Ming Wang (31:00)
And people tend to think, and that’s part of the reason why young people leaving churches in universities, they think science and faith cannot work together. You know, and I will say this way, it is true many scientists need to learn about faith, but also it is also true that many Christians should learn about science. So in other words, in order to bring these folks, these atheists, these skeptics to Christ, we have to find that common ground. We have to reach out to them as well. You know, we have to speak the language of the listener. The scientists need to learn about Christ and the Christians should also learn about science. You know, one time I was at church, the pastor said, oh, I’ve got headache, everybody. You know, brother and sister in Christ, please pray for me. I don’t believe this Medicine stuff. Pray for me. Okay, so we pray for him. Next morning, 8:00, he pick up the phone and call his doctor. So there’s some problem in the inconsistency and young people watching these inconsistencies in us, you know, you know, and how come Christian is not confronting the science and faith conflict in a modern technological driven society.

Dr. Ming Wang (32:16)
So my book, and through the amnion membrane contact lens story, is trying to, in fact, I pray about it. I want to help these patients through fetal healing, but I did not want to hurt the baby’s life. So I was literally stuck for about 10 years. Wanted to research to help blind patients, but restore the eyesight, reducing eye scarring because a fetus does not scar. But at the same time, I did not want to hurt the baby. And through much praying, and that’s also what I come to realize. That’s why I’ve become a Christian. Becoming a Christian means I’m going to follow Jesus Christ, I’m going to ask him for help when I got stuck in my life, whatever it is. So through much praying and also at the time, working with some Christian medical doctors at the same time, we come to realize that, well, maybe the reason a fetus, an unborn child can heal without scar is because the amnio membrane protection before birth. So I got lots of placentas donated by me, to me by mothers. After giving birth to children, they don’t need a placenta anymore. So I got a placenta brought in the laboratory and started doing research.

Dr. Ming Wang (33:26)
And eventually I developed the amnio placenta contact lens. When I put these placenta contact lenses onto injured eyes, Andrea, miracle happened. Basically, the eye. Think about your little eye cell on the eye surface. Look up, you see the little tent. And near the tent and the eye cell maybe say, oh, I was mistaken. We were not born yet. And the way that our body tends to behave before birth is regeneration or healing without scar. There are many of those patients with amniomembrane contact lens treatment that have their eyesight restored. Then I ask myself the question, did I really invent the amniotic membrane contact lens? Interestingly, I concluded no, because I’m not just a scientist, I’m also a Christian. So I did not invent the amniotic membrane. I did not invent the placenta. God did. As a scientist and a Christian, I was just very lucky and privileged to be given a precious little opportunity by God to catch a little glimpse of part of his original creation. So credit should go to where credit belongs. So I decided as A Christian, I should not take credit for this invention of amnio membrane contact lenses. So I decided to donate my invention to the world.

Dr. Ming Wang (34:47)
I put my patent MNL membrane contact lens patent online so everybody around the world can see it instantaneously. And also I went around the world over a 20 year period or so to about 50 some countries free of charge, taught over 10,000 eye doctors how to use this technology. So today, as you see in the film site, and neural membrane contact lens technology, wonderful technology, can help restore eyesight in many blind patients including blind orphan children. Has really transformed the world. It’s now used by eye doctors from nearly every nation and millions of patients eyesight have been restored. It’s actually a $5 billion industry right now worldwide. Now, even though in the process 20 years process, I did not make any money myself because I donated the technology in the beginning my patent, I feel I did the right thing as a scientist and a Christian, meaning I’m privileged to do the research, to learn the skill, the tools. But I recognize ultimate the purpose what I’m doing using this technology for is to glorify God, is to satisfy, to bring about his purpose which is to save more people and to help science advance helping patients, but at the same time protecting life and non violating Christian principles.

Andrea Schwartz (36:11)
Well listeners, that’s why after reading the book, I knew I needed to share Dr. Wang with you. And another comment about your book is you are not afraid to talk about mistakes, failures, regrets. And you could easily have omitted parts of personal life that aren’t picture perfect. But because the people you met along the way contributed to all the pieces coming together, including going back to China and being a musician and being a dancer. We see that Psalm 139 is true, that before God formed you, he knew you and he knew everything that was going to happen that he foreordained. So it’s not that what you thought back as a child in China wasn’t true, but it wasn’t the complete truth. The complete truth was God had plans for you and he was going to fashion your life. And in the process you got your doses of humility and heartache and understanding. But in the book you always go back to remembering what it was like not only to be a young person in China, but to remember what it was like before Christ was in your life. And I, I thought that was the part that truly encouraged me.

Andrea Schwartz (37:37)
And I could see that if we all looked at that way instead of talking about oh poor me, look at all the terrible things that have happened in My life, I’m such a victim to realize that God fashions us to specifically do the things he created us to do.

Dr. Ming Wang (37:53)
Exactly. Exactly the purpose of it. Right. I used to not understand why I have to go through the suffering during Cultural Revolution. And as an atheist, I have no idea why. But after I become a believer, looking back, I recognize the plan that God has a plan. God has a purpose of allowing me going through those sufferings during Cultural Revolution, China, and not being able to go to school, going to high school, and was going to be deported, labor camp is because he wanted me as a person to grow, to grow compassion, understanding. And the connection, in this case, with the patients I see today who are in darkness, because I know how they feel because I used to be in darkness myself. So very often they say, what’s the difference, having become a Christian? The difference is I realize that God has a plan for me, even though I may not understand at the time, you know, going through setbacks, sometimes we say why God has to put me through this difficulty. Why God has a. Why it may not be apparent to us at the time, but trust in him. When you look back later in life and you’re able to see a little bit the bigger picture, bigger plan that God has for us, you will realize why.

Andrea Schwartz (39:14)
And another aspect to that is. And they showed it a little bit in the movie, but not so much as that you depicted it in the book, that before you would do a surgery, you would commit the surgery to the Lord. And I imagine you had a lot of atheist staff potentially watching you say, okay, let’s pray right now. Scripture tells us to pray without ceasing. And sometimes I get people laughing at me. I say, I pray for parking spaces. I mean, I. I’ll pray for whatever I particularly need or want at the time. Sometimes God’s answ is yes, sometimes it’s no. Not all the surgeries that you did that you committed to the Lord turned out the way everybody hoped. But there’s one story about the little girl from India who everybody was pulling for. It would have been the greatest, you know, TV movie if it had succeeded the way everybody hoped. But you had insight as to even how God turned all that for the good. Share that a little bit, if you would.

Dr. Ming Wang (40:15)
Yes, thank you. Thank you for your question, Andrea. There are two aspects of your question. First is how do we work? You know, what is the most important assignment that as a Christian that God has given us? And I have gradually understood that the most important chore, the task that God has given each of us as Christians is to help grow the kingdom. That is to not just celebrating our faith at the churches on Sundays, but more importantly, share our faith Monday through Fridays at the workplace. Now here’s the problem. Lots of people say, well, no, no, no, no way. There’s no common ground between Christian and non Christian. So there’s nothing, you know, in Sunday you have common ground with your fellow Christians, but not only through Friday, other people with different faith, religion or no faith at all. And I’ve been thinking about that question. You know, in my clinic I have a drawing that I was eye surgeons doing surgery, presumably to me and you know, doing surgeries. But Jesus Christ is standing behind me. His hand is on my shoulder. So what it does is to me is that yes, I need to do surgery.

Dr. Ming Wang (41:33)
I cannot be lazy. The science and technology, but the inspiration comes from Christ, okay? So he knows that God works through his miracle. Every surgery that I’ve been able to do, miracles from God, but God worked through his miracle through me. Okay? I’m the vessel, I’m the tool. Now. So regarding atheists and Christians, do we have common ground or not? That’s a big question. For example, atheists would not like me praying, right? So long time ago when I started doing surgeries and I was already Christian, I said, I’m gonna pray with all my patients. But then they say, no, no, no, don’t do that. I mean, if you pray, the non Christian patients will be offended and they will not come back for your eye surgeries. They will not be happy. So, oh, maybe I should not pray. So then I stopped praying to Christ. I said, what should I do? You know, the answer I got back is that and in many parts of scripture is that if it’s the right thing to do, there’s a price to pay. Christ has paid the ultimate price by dying for our sin at the cross. So my little praying little risk is nothing.

Dr. Ming Wang (42:37)
So I decide I’m going to pray. So then I’ve done 55,000 laser vision corrections surgeries now, including on over 4,000 doctors. Every single patient I’ve done in my career, I pray with my patient before surgery. Now here’s the thing. I’m a scientist. So I did a little research project over about two years, collected over about 200 some atheist patients that I knew that they were not Christians. And I conducted the research project. I want to find out how they feel. Is it true that they are offended? Is it true that indeed atheists and Christians do not have common ground? So all of these patients, every Single patient before surgery. They are lying on the surgery table ready for surgery. And I always go to their ears. I sit down and have a moment, just a quiet moment, just me and patient. Pray with them. Every single patient then. So the day after the surgery of these 200 some non Christian patients, I conduct a research project. I did a little survey. So I asked them that. Yesterday I prayed with you. Were you offended? I know that you are not Christian, that could you tell me, share with me, how do you feel?

Dr. Ming Wang (43:48)
And almost all of them told me this way. They said, Dr. Wang, yesterday I was very nervous under your laser, and you did come to my ear, very gentle saying, nancy is okay. I pray with you because I was told I’m supposed to be politically correct. I’m supposed to ask for permissions. So I always ask permissions. So I said, is it okay to pray with you? And the patient said, Nancy, honestly, Dr. Wang, I was so nervous underneath your laser, you’re about to do a surgery on me. I didn’t dare to say no to my surgeon. So I said, yeah, I kind of took advantage of the situation, but I took advantage for God. I felt okay. But my main question today is, were you offended when I pray? And all of them told me this way. And this stayed with me. This is my main point about science and faith and the Christian, non Christian, do they have common ground? Can we find common ground or not with non Christians? They all say this way. They say, Dr. Wang, I do not believe what you believe. I said, that’s why I asked you, were you offended though?

Dr. Ming Wang (44:45)
When I pray and they say, even I did not believe what you believe. But when you pray with me before my eye surgery yesterday, I was not only not offended, I was not only not offended, but I was actually moved. I said, how can you be moved when you don’t believe my cries that I believe? All of them said this way. They say, I was moved yesterday because in one of my most important moments in my life, which is my eye surgery, I don’t want to have anything to go wrong. You brought something that is most important to you. You’re Christ. And I appreciate that. So all of a sudden I realized it’s the love for fellow human being that transcends the boundaries our faith and religion is that ultimately, as Christians, what God wants us to do when we meet a non Christian is not preaching nor imposing, but express our love for another fellow human being through identifying that common ground. That love for fellow human being doesn’t matter whether they’re Christian or not. That is the best way. The founding Common ground is the best way to bring that person to Christ.

Dr. Ming Wang (46:00)
So I’ve been praying all my surgeries in my life and yes, you’re right. Regarding your second question, Andrea. One of the difficulties that I have after being Christian is I thought after being Christian, everything will be blue sky, you know, white cloud. My life will be perfect. No, in many ways my life is even more challenging because I have to follow the code of conduct as a Christian. And one the biggest challenge to me I’ve come to realize is that when we pray to God, if God does answer our prayer, that’s not that hard. But what if we pray to God as a Christian? You know, our loved one gets sick, we lost a job and we have this difficulty. Our kids have got into trouble. We pray to God. It seems that God did not answer. You know, our loved one still dies. So how can we still maintain faith and confidence and trust in him? An example you talk about in the film site. We brought this kid orphan from India and we did everything. I even developed amnio contact lens. And also we prayed before her Kajal surgery. She was intentionally blinded by her own stepmother who put sulfuric acid into her eyes.

Dr. Ming Wang (47:15)
Trying to make Kajal a blind orphan child who then sing on the streets, who would then get more money from tourists then Kujau. Afterwards, maliciously blinded, she was found to have no talent of singing. She couldn’t sing. That’s why she was abandoned. And that’s why we found her in a train station near Calcutta, India. Almost died from starvation and the blind and sight. The movie is about Kujol’s remarkable journey trying to come from darkness to sight. So we brought her here. I found three host families to take care of her. And then we are getting ready, we’re doing surgery. I got a whole team to pray. Whether you’re atheist or believer, I want the whole team to pray for Kajal. And we did. And the surgery completely failed. I realized that the stepmother who put sulfuric acid into her eyes that kept the eye open allowed the acid to corrode through the last layer of the eye. So I have zero chance to restore Kajal’s eyesight. The thing is, you saw in the film was true that I step out of the operating room and there was reporters. Tennessee reporter, you’re right. If it was successful, they’ll be reporting that.

Dr. Ming Wang (48:20)
But they already did stamp a picture of me and see me soaked, trenched in the operating gown, the scrub. And I did not want to talk to any reporter. I just ran away because I was so mad that surgery failed. And for months after, every day people come say, hey, Kajal, see or not? These three host families, we find it naturally they took care of Kajal. And they asked me for answer. And then I looked behind me that nobody answered my question. And not only I was mad at the stepmother who poured sulfuric acid into such a high poisonous little child to maliciously blind her for money, but also I was angry at my own God because I didn’t understand that as a Christian, why number one God would allow such an evil happen. You know, such a suffering happened in such a helpless child, five year old blind orphan. But also why we did the right thing. We got the technology, we prayed and we did everything. Why God did not answer our prayer? I was thinking that God, if you just leave a little piece of tissue. I’ve done some very difficult reconstructive surgeries.

Dr. Ming Wang (49:24)
I may have a chance to restore, maybe partial, a bit of vision for sight, but for Kajal. But no, the entire eye was destroyed. No chance. So my foundation Christian faith is fundamentally shaken. Because I think I said to myself, if a guy, you don’t answer our prayer, don’t listen to me, don’t care why I need to become a Christian. So for months I was in a deep trench. Not only medically, but also more important, my faith was shaken. And then every year our foundation has an event to raise money called the Eyeball. Because I had to learn dancing during Cultural Revolution escape labor camp. Now I use the dancing skill to combined with medical charity. I created the concept called the eyeball. You come to eyeball, you see the beautiful dancing. But it reminds you how precious our eyesight is as human being and how much we need to help those who have lost sight. So at every eyeball we always feature the patient’s foundation being able to help their ear. So that year was Kajal. So 500 eyeball attendees in a big ballroom in Nashville Hilton hotel. And then on stage, three host families, they were telling everybody how they took care of Kajal.

Dr. Ming Wang (50:34)
And then their kids, they stood, come to the microphone and told everybody how they play with Kajal and how they took care of the five year old who couldn’t speak English and come to America. One 11 year old boy at the microphone said something that truly impacted me. Me. And Kajal was standing on the side listening on the stage. And he said Kajol couldn’t see, but we played hide and seek with her all the time. But even though she couldn’t see, she always was able to Find us wherever we hid. And she started smiling, running around, having good time, learning English. So the 11 year old boy turned around, looked at his father behind him. He said, daddy, Kujo is happy. She had nothing. Daddy, I don’t need my ipod anymore. And those were days of the ipod. So standing on the side, listening to that, the 11 year old boy testimonial. All of a sudden a new understanding emerged in me. I realized that perhaps God did answer our prayer. That even though none of us wants to see such a tragedy happen to such a helpless precious child, but God maybe is using Kajal’s suffering to impact people around, cajole these kids, to make them appreciate what they have in life.

Dr. Ming Wang (51:56)
So in other words, Kajal has shown us, even when no light is coming from outside, light could emanate from within. If one has Christ, one has love in one’s heart. So God may have answered my prayer already, but not in the way I wanted, in the timing I wanted. Maybe God will answer, but only in his way at his time. So realizing that the bigger picture, the bigger plan, the positive impact that Kajal’s life has impacted other people’s lives and Kajal has been able to move on and develop new purpose for her life. So what I’m trying to say is I understand God did answer my prayer. So my anger towards my own God kind of starts subsiding. Then the three host family walk off the stage. Me and Kajal came up to the microphone and I give her a little. I give her the microphone. I said, Kajal, there are 500 AIBO attendees right now. We all love you so much, but you can’t see them. We all can see you. Can you say something maybe in English? So I gave her the microphone. But surprising to me that Kajal broke into a little mischievous little smile.

Dr. Ming Wang (53:01)
She had a little secret she did not tell me. You remember she was intentionally blinded back in India. Because they were trying to make her blind orphan child who then sing on the street, who would get more money from tourists. But then Kajols wanted to have no talent on the scene. That’s why she was abandoned in the train station. Foundation found her, brought her to America. So in her five year old mind, after she eventually camped along thousands, tens of thousands of miles, came to America and found freedom. What Kajol want the Most as a 5 year old is not to see. She wants more than she wants to see. She wants to be able to learn to sing. Because she wants to prove to all the adults that she could sing. So she therefore should not be abandoned. She’s worth saving. So she, Keqiao lived with these three host families, with these kids every day playing. She learned from these kids, American kids, how to sing. So at that moment on eyeball stage, 500 eyeballs, you know, got ball gowns and tails. Beautiful. We’re looking at on the stage, Kajal. I gave her the microphone.

Dr. Ming Wang (54:09)
She broke into a mischievous little smile. Keqiang said, Dr. Wang, I want to sing. I was surprised. I said, really? You can sing? You want to sing? She said, yes. So in front of all 500 abort attendees, many of us have tears in our eyes. Look at this precious little thing, the unspeakable suffering. But yet God has helped her find a way to overcome that move on life. But not only that, her suffering has so positively impacted the other kids life around her, make them appreciate what they have in America today so much more. Kijal sang a song that she picked herself in front of those 500 eyeball attendees. And that song she sang holding that little microphone, that picture, that picture that Kajal was saying at the eyeball appeared by Reuters, reported by Reuters and appeared in newspaper in about 70 some countries in the Thanksgiving time that year. The song that she picked herself and sang in front of 500 IBOG attendees was Jesus loves Me. So right then, many of us are in tears watching her singing. And then the band started. Kajoya and I came on the stage just like in the wedding, father and daughter.

Dr. Ming Wang (55:20)
Kajoy and I did the first dance.

Andrea Schwartz (55:23)
Wow, that’s great.

Dr. Ming Wang (55:25)
So God does answer our prayer as Christians that when we think that our prayer is not answered, it’s actually the biggest test of our strength as Christians is when we pray it seemingly that God is not answering, but realizing the deeper understanding that God will answer. God is faithful. He will answer our prayer, but only in his way.

Andrea Schwartz (55:55)
Yes.

Dr. Ming Wang (55:55)
At his time.

Andrea Schwartz (55:56)
Yes. Well, thank you for that. That was really telling. Again, the movie didn’t have her sing it in the movie, but I was glad that I read it in the book. So a couple of things. This wasn’t. Well, maybe it was mentioned in the book. I think I can’t remember, but I looked for it. You have a pen pal sort of process where people in America converse with others in China. Talk a little bit about that.

Dr. Ming Wang (56:22)
Yes. Today China is economically technology developed rapidly, but it is a looming crisis that is, you know, with material development without faith. What happened? Corruption. Right. Because people don’t have moral ethical standard behavior. So China has wonderful economic development, technology development. But China needs Christ more than Ever. And there’s only 5%, actually less than 5% Chinese are Christians. Essentially it’s an atheist country, right? So I realized that God has impacted my life. I come to America, I found not only freedom, just like the character in the God’s Dead movie, the Chinese Student, which is inspired by my life story. As I mentioned that I also more important find faith in Christ. So give me a purpose what I’m going to use my science technology for in this case, to help my blind orphan children, patients. So I want the Chinese, the 1.4 billion people at the time when there’s more material development, the wealth development, temptation to realize that you need Christ more so that you can stem the corruption, but also help the next generation to combine science and technology to have more purpose driven life. So I realized that we need to do something about it.

Dr. Ming Wang (57:51)
And specifically we need to bring Bible to China. Now I work with Lifeway Christian books and translate the Bible into modern young people used Chinese language. Okay, the modern Chinese different from 50 years ago, 100 years ago. And my English language is different. Right. Today, you know, we have word attachment. You know, 50 years ago attachment is attachment, emotional attachment maybe. But today when you say attachment, it means a computer attachment, right? So words change meaning. So the Christian faith can be, can grow in China if we can translate the Bible into the modern Chinese language, not, you know, older ones, 50, 100 years ago. So I work with Lifeway and we translate Chinese into modern Chinese the young people use today. And then here’s the most challenging aspect is we have to bring the Bible to China. But that the legal, the law only allowed two copies, only two copies. And so I have a pen pal project that people I found the Christians in China, number one, develop pen pal relationship in email. Because website can be censored, but not email. Hey, that’s a little loophole. So we’re taking advantage of that. So you know they communicate right with the Chinese Christians.

Dr. Ming Wang (59:09)
And there’s some rules, there’s safeguard, you have to be careful, you know, you don’t want to get the Chinese Christians into trouble and stuff. But we follow these rules and basically talk about Christ without critiquing the government. That’s the way to do it. And then these pen pals, American pen pals will bring Bible to China. And we tell everybody the risk. You can only bring two copies. And more than that you can get into trouble. And many of them actually took risks bring more than that. Every time I go back, I bring back two suitcases of Bible, the newly translated one One time I almost got in trouble at the Shanghai airport. The custom person wants to open my suitcase. Oops, I could be in big trouble. Not only I could be detained, but what if I’m detained? All my patients in America, they lose their eye doctor and not just for my family, but all my patients. So I was very nervous. I look at the two suitcases. He said, I’m going to open it. What’s in there? I said, books. He said, what kind of books? I said, good books. But he’s still going to open.

Dr. Ming Wang (01:00:16)
He’s still going to open. And I said, oh, I’m way surpassed the two book requirements, the restriction and I’m going to be detained forever. And so I was sweating and I was standing at the custom in the line there and you know, in front of the station and I was closing my eyes and stopped praying. I said, God, please stop him, please stop him. Don’t let him open the suitcase. Don’t let him open. As I’m open, praying, praying. Then I open my eyes, something shocking happened right in front of me. He didn’t open the two suitcases. He kind of stood up, there’s two suitcases and put in the belt conveying belt and let it roll through the machine. I said, what happened? A moment ago before I closed my eyes in my prayer, he was going to open my suitcase and now I have to open my eyes. He actually just put his suitcase vertical and just let it go through the conveyal belt. And I realized something. That was because all of a sudden behind me, seeming out of nowhere, there are like 50 people standing in the line. So what happened? As I was praying, there’s a newly new plane deplaned.

Dr. Ming Wang (01:01:27)
Bunch of people just came out of the gate there and just stood behind me. So this guy realized that all of a sudden if he has opened my trunk, he would hold him up, you know, or hold the line. So he decided not to open my suitcase because all the people showing up behind me. So in a way I think God answered my prayer. But interesting in a different way, right? So it’s the China Bible Project. The goal is to for world’s most populous nation at the time of scientific rapid development, economic development, where people need more Christ, not less. Let them hear the good news, let them have an opportunity because many of them don’t know, don’t know Christ. Let them have the opportunity to know their Savior.

Andrea Schwartz (01:02:13)
So how would people who are interested find out more about it and how.

Dr. Ming Wang (01:02:17)
To get involved for Americans here, Email me. Our foundation address is wang foundation.com wang foundation.com you email. You say, my email address is in there. Just say, Dr. Wang, I’m interested. Become a pen pal and I will put you on the list. And we when we identify a Chinese person, typical atheist, who is interested in communicating with American Christian pen pal and we will then pass that information to you and you can start communicating. But I’ll give you guidelines. You know, I don’t want that person in China getting into trouble. But there are lots of things we can do. Number one, email is not censored. Okay. Website is right. Emails. Okay, good. But there’s a certain guidelines. It basically kind of to bring that person have an opportunity to. In America, we have taken our freedom for granted. You know, sometimes on Sunday people say, oh, I don’t want to go to church, I’m going to sleep in. In China, people cannot freely go to churches. You know, in many other countries, right. They don’t have the ability, the freedom to worship. Here we have the freedom. We don’t appreciate.

Andrea Schwartz (01:03:30)
We’re coming to the close. I promised you I would limit this and we’re getting close to that time, but you sort of just hinted at it. I’d like you to conclude, if you would, about your true appreciation for America. You know, there’s so many people who were born here who like you said, don’t know anything different. And we hear a lot today about how America is terrible and this and that. But you know what? Even though you experience in the book chronicles this discrimination because you didn’t look like everybody else, you have this sense that America is important. So much so that you wanted to become a citizen. If you would tell us about that perspective and what you’d have to say to people who never knew anything different.

Dr. Ming Wang (01:04:20)
Thank you for the question, Andrea. People say, ask me what’s the purpose of your book? From doctrines to site and what is the purpose of the film site? By the way, a site is distributed by Angel Studios at Angel.com, a wonderful Christian distribution company distributed The Chosen the Bible story, Sound of Freedom, now Angel Studios distributing site so they say, what is the purpose of the book and the movie for America today? So my answer is this. Here’s the message. The site we’re trying to send Suicide the movie to America and book From Darkness to Sight. You know who appreciates vision sight the most? Those who used to be blind. Who appreciates freedom the most? Those who used to not have freedom sight. And the book From Darkness to Sight is about someone who used to not have freedom who come to share with all of us here in America today who always have had freedom, how precious freedom is, how precious the ability to worship freely the faith is. And then the people say, you mean we don’t appreciate enough America, what we have? I say, correct. And they say, why? Well, why do you say that?

Dr. Ming Wang (01:05:40)
What’s the evidence of our lack of appreciation of America? I said, the evidence is in our unprecedented polarization and division. We’re increasing unable to work across political aisles, racial divides and ethnic divisions. We’re increasingly fixated as fellow Americans on the differences rather than appreciating what we all have in common. And we’re increasingly unable to solve the problems we’re facing in the society. You know, gun violence, opioid crisis, environmental disaster, racial tension, education, poverty, healthcare, jobs. And we need to restore America to its foundation, which is a nation built upon two bedrocks. One is the Constitution, one is the Bible. So that’s what America is all about. That’s why America attract people from around the world. Because these two cornerstones, we cannot forget that. And these are the two common ground we all share. So I would say the destruction, some of the people that burn down houses and burn down the buildings and you know, causing destruction, I just want to get down and shout at them. I said, don’t you know how good we have got here? Yes, we don’t have a perfect country. Granted we have lots of problems as I mentioned, all these problems, racial tension, economic challenges, poverty and all that.

Dr. Ming Wang (01:06:59)
But compared with the rest of the world, we have the best nation because the blessing of Jesus Christ. So we need to truly as Americans to appreciate this country but not just saying it, but by doing it, but being more willing to work together for the sake of the nation to restore America across racial divided ethnic divisions. So for all of us, especially for all Christians, doesn’t matter. You’re white, Asian, black, Latin Americans, African Americans, we all have the ultimate common ground which is Jesus Christ.

Andrea Schwartz (01:07:33)
Amen. Well doctor, thank you again for joining me. Give the name of the website again and where can people get your book?

Dr. Ming Wang (01:07:43)
Wangfoundation.com and they can click little donate $25 at proceeds go to foundation so we can help more blind orphan children. And we will smell a book signed by me and especially share with young people who are studying science and technology in universities to tell them that you need the science but you need more Christ today. And also to watch the film site distributed by Angel Studios. It’s at Angel.com Very good.

Andrea Schwartz (01:08:14)
[email protected] is how you reach me and we look forward to talking with you next time.

(01:08:22)
Thanks for listening to out of the Question.

(01:08:24)
For more information on this and other topics, please visit chalcedon.edu.