Abolitionist Perspectives on Sexual Violence in Higher Ed: Building Community and Healing

SA Voices From the Field

In the latest episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, host Dr. Jill Creighton sits down with Dr. Niah Grimes and Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne, two of the three authors behind the ground-breaking new book, Thinking Like an Abolitionist to End Sexual Violence in Higher Education. This episode dives deep into not just the book, but the lived experiences, philosophies, and activism shaping how we address sexual violence on college campuses today.

The conversation is rich, personal, and thought-provoking from the outset. Both Dr. Grimes and Dr. Karunaratne share their journeys into higher education and research, rooted deeply in addressing systems of violence, healing, and examining the needs of minoritized students. Their experiences as scholar-practitioners and their commitment to transformative justice is palpable throughout the discussion.

At the heart of the conversation is the bold theme of “abolitionist thinking.” Rather than viewing abolition solely as dismantling harmful systems, the authors draw on the work of Ruth Wilson Gilmore and others to frame abolition as the presence of care, community, and healing. They challenge the carceral and compliance-driven frameworks that have dominated Title IX and other campus responses while calling for practices that actually meet the needs of survivors and communities—not just adhere to federal mandates.

Dr. Grimes highlights how compliance cultures, rooted in white supremacy, often stifle creativity and community, leading to approaches where “business as usual” takes precedence over true prevention and healing. Dr. Karunaratne adds the importance of local, grassroots efforts and "1,000,000 experiments"—encouraging institutions and individuals to try new approaches, fail, learn, and grow together. Throughout, both assert the transformative power of centering healing—for survivors and for communities as a whole.

Perhaps most refreshing is the authors’ call for those in higher education to move beyond compliance as the ceiling of their work, to instead use it as the bare minimum "floor" from which innovation, accountability, and holistic care can grow. They urge practitioners to honor their own strengths, invest in their healing and that of students, and build community from the ground up.

If you are a student affairs professional, educator, or simply care about safer and more just campuses, this episode will challenge and inspire you. Listen now to hear new perspectives on building communities where all students can thrive beyond the constraints of the current system.

Listen to the episode and rethink how we approach prevention, healing, and justice in higher education. Your campus could be the next place where abolitionist thinking takes root.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed professionals wherever you happen to be. This is season 12, continuing our journey through the past, present, and future of student affairs. I'm Dr. Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back to another episode of essay Voices from the Field, where today we're featuring two of three authors of a brand new book, Thinking Like an Abolitionist to End Sexual Violence in Higher Education. Our first guest is Dr. Niah S. Grimes, who received her doctorate from the University of Georgia in Education with an emphasis in College Student Affairs Administration with a certificate in Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:48]: Dr. Grimes was the recipient of the Mary Frances Early College of Education's Research Award and spent her tenure at the University of Georgia investigating campus sexual violence and systems of domination to begin eradicating violence and oppression from higher education. As an assistant professor in the Higher Education and Student Affairs program in the Department of Advanced Studies Leadership and Policy, Dr. Grimes focuses her scholarship and teaching on spirituality and healing, examining the experiences of people on campus with multiple minoritized identities, and eradicating violence and systems of oppression in higher education and beyond. Our second guest is Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne, and she's a postdoctoral research associate in the McCluskey Center for Violence Prevention at the University of Utah. In her research, she employs power conscious frameworks to understand issues of sexual violence in higher education, focusing on interrupting harm and promoting healing for minoritized survivors. Nadeeka's background in student affairs, specifically her work in campus cultural centers and with university violence prevention efforts, influences her scholarship and teaching.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:48]: She's also a trauma informed yoga instructor programs on college campuses and in the community. Welcome to SA Voices, Niah.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:01:56]: Hi. My name is Niah Grimes. Welcome. I'm happy to be here.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:59]: And Nadeeka, welcome.

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:02:01]: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:03]: We've got a coast to coast situation today with Naya coming to us from Maryland and Nadeeka coming to us from California. So I'm very glad we were able to make the time zones work out to have this very rich dialogue ahead. We're talking about your book today, which we'll get into in a moment. But before we do that, we always love to start our show by getting to know our guests and how you got to your current seat. So Naya, let's start with you. How did you become an assistant professor?

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:02:26]: Wow. How to sum up such a long journey? I never really saw myself in this role at all. I I actually even in getting the college, I was first gen. I wasn't even considering that, like, the professors teaching me that that was a job available to me. And then at the time, I was at George Mason. They were in r two on the road to r one. So they had a ton of funding that they were pouring into undergraduate research. So I never thought about research, but my professors saw something in me just in my criticality, I think.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:02:59]: And I'm really just a problem solver, like, I like to solve problems. And so I was studying sociology, equity, and social change, and my professors were pushing me into research. So I was able to start taking qualitative research classes at the undergraduate level. I had an honors thesis where I did a qualitative dissertation level of work, but I interviewed 12 people, men specifically around their experiences retrospectively in high school, how they were taught to learn about sex. There was so much in the literature then almost blaming women for unintended pregnancy. And I'm like, where is the other perspective? And, you know, this is such a larger issue. So that's where I started my work in research, but I didn't believe in the power of research. I felt like we were doing all of this good work, but it wasn't reaching the people I cared about, my community members.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:03:51]: And so I started to do work more in the community, and I got into mental health counseling. I was doing work with survivors of violence, domestic violence, partner violence, neglected, unhoused youth, and I was working on the suicide switchboard nationally. And I recognized early on that, like, for some reason, I had a capacity to handle some of the harder things. And I leaned into that. One of my supervisors was a counselor, and I admired the relationship she built with the people we were serving. And I was like, I wanna do that. I feel like that's where my time should be spent. So I spent all this time getting a counseling degree, and I ended up counseling mostly in student affairs because I really loved undergraduate students, students in that before 25, the brain fully closed, like, area.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:04:42]: They just were so open to change and transformation. And as a transdisciplinary scholar, that is what sort of, like, ignites me is where can we make the most transformation towards healing so that people can meet their needs, so that people can live wholly. And from that work, I realized in working mostly with marginalized students, it wasn't them. It was systemic. And so I was like, okay. So now I need to generate power to really try to change structures and culture and community. And the best way that me personally with the identities that I hold to do that, not having any generational wealth, was to go back and get a PhD. So that's how I ended up at UGA with Chris Linder, and it's all really synchronous.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:05:29]: Right? Because without all of these things along the way, I would have never met doctor Linder. Through Chris is how I met Nadeeka through the Spencer. We did a symposium through Spencer together around sexual violence. And doctor Linder was really like, you have the capacity to really do assistant professor tenure track work. And, again, I I was like, well, I think I really need to practice. At the same time, my disability was getting worse and worse. So I was like, okay. I think that this is really spiritual and that, you know, I can try to work and be disabled.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:06:04]: It's still challenging, but still do transformative, like, transdisciplinary, equitable work that I love. So that's how I ended up here. Specifically, I work at Morgan State University, which is a HBCU in Baltimore, and I just think that I'm primed for that institutional type. Like, I love how authentic I get to be in my work.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:23]: Thank you for sharing that journey with us, Naya. You referenced doctor Chris Linder, who is the other author on the book. So we're glad to get two or three of you today. Again, we'll talk about the book more in a little bit. And Zika, same question to you. How did you get to your current seat?

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:06:38]: So I currently work as a postdoctoral researcher. I work with Chris Linder at the University of Utah's McCluskey Center for Violence Prevention. So right now, I'm doing kind of most of my work is research, and I love it. And similarly to Naya, I when I started on my kind of post undergraduate professional journey, I never thought that I would be doing research at all, let alone full time. I didn't foresee a PhD on the horizon, but I pursued my master's in student affairs administration at Michigan State. And I had some really incredible mentors, shout out to Dr. Krista Porter and Dr. Ginny Jones' boss, who were like, hey, do you know about research? Do you know about this side of student affairs and higher education practice and academic programs? And so after I finished my master's, I worked a lot of my research is informed by my work as a student affairs practitioner.

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:07:27]: So I worked in doing violence prevention education. I worked at a cultural center, racial equity work. And a lot of the questions that I still pursue in my my research and scholarship are from a lot of the experiences I had and things I witnessed as a practitioner, particularly with working with survivors, working with students of color, other minoritized students, and seeing how a lot of the things that we, and myself included, were doing, particularly in the context of anti violence work, weren't working. They weren't serving students. They weren't leading to preventing violence. And they in particular weren't serving the needs of minoritized students like women of color. And so that led me to go back to graduate school to do my PhD at UCLA, where I studied the the healing experiences of women and femme students of color and really to continue to dive into this research and scholarship to, as Naya talked about, seeing what kinds of change and transformation is needed and is needed, especially by students, to better address their needs and to more effectively respond to violence and also importantly prevent violence in higher education. So say much of my current work is informed by my experiences as a student affairs practitioner.

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:08:37]: I also will say I teach as a trauma informed yoga instructor, and I think that space and that training and experiences teaching really informs how I show up in all kinds of spaces, including in a research context, including in a classroom, including in my student affairs work. And so that's a big philosophy and framework that influences me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:56]: The book we're talking about today is Thinking Like an Abolitionist to End Sexual Violence in Higher Education. Again, you are two of the three authors of this work. And I think hearing your foundations both as scholar practitioners really helps inform the work. It's a bold title, and I love it. Can we start with how did we arrive at this as the right time, the right moment for this piece right now, especially knowing knowing that I'm imagining from when you began to write the piece to now that it's published have shifted quite a bit.

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:09:27]: Yes. It is a old title, a title that we spent a lot of time talking through and thinking about. I guess I'll share a little bit about how the book came to be, which you're right. Given the publishing timeline and the process, this was a couple years ago that actually Chris Linder brought the three of us together based on kind of our individual and collective work that we had been engaging in and the kinds of conversations that we've been having in as scholars and scholar practitioners around, again, things that we have experienced working with students, have seen, have read, have seen the state kind of of sexual violence in higher education research. And she brought us together to dream and to create something that encapsulated kind of all of our different really brought together all of our different views and work on the area. So for me, I'll say my journey into being a student of abolition is it really started actually as a practitioner. And when I was working as a violence prevention educator, I started to learn about frameworks of carceral feminism by scholar activists like Mimi Kim and Mariame Kaba and learning about the ways in which at large the mainstream anti violence movement, so not just in the context of higher education, but at large, had really aligned itself with carceral or punitive structures and practices and starting to think about the ways that we in higher education have done mimic some of those systems that are outside of higher education. So I will say when we talk about carcerality, we talk about logics or practices of control, of punishment, and surveillance, and how those practices have become really integrated with, again, mainstream anti sexual violence work and also in the context of higher education.

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:11:04]: And so for me, that's kind of when I started learning about these, these frameworks and how they might be applied into the context of my work in higher education, doing violence prevention work and how maybe these frameworks might in particular serve the needs of minoritized survivors as students of color, queer and trans survivors, survivors with disabilities. And so that's a little bit about kind of my journey into this. And then as I continue to work with students and engage in research, I found more and more of the ways that, again, especially minoritized survivors, we're talking about often say things like, I don't want to see the person who harmed me punished. I just want them to stop. I want them to stop what they're doing. I don't want them to hurt me or to hurt anyone else. And the ways in which they are talking about whether or not they're using the language of anti carcerality or logics of surveillance control punishment, but they're really speaking about their needs as being outside of these systems that we have, have created. So the last thing I'll say is a little bit around the title.

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:12:04]: So we use the phrase, I think it's oh, it's an I always want to make a point to say that we use the phrase thinking like an abolitionist because I think it's important that, instead of using a phrase like abolition, to end so we we use that thinking like an abolitionist to to try to, to name that true abolition would require abolishing higher education as we know it. And so we really want to be cautious around how, we're use we're talking about employing these frameworks, that scholars and organizers have have created and developed for years that, to not be appropriating that into the context of higher education, but rather thinking about what are the the larger overarching lessons, and ways of being and doing that we might be able to bring into our work. And so that's where kind of that phrase thinking like an abolition comes in.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:57]: You mentioned carcerality a couple of times. It's also a big theme in the book. Now I think from my conduct officer hat and my deputy title nine coordinator hat, I would think of it more of a retributive framework or align with retributive justice as opposed to restorative justice, which is something that we've been kind of moving towards in higher education for a long time, looking at harm and repair versus crime and punishment and institutions being stuck in systemic structures that require a crime and punishment model in order to be in compliance with what the government has required from us historically. And so it's an interesting tension between that community aspect, that healing aspect for what survivors need and and also what respondents and perpetrators might need in order to change behavior in many circumstances. But I also wanna dig into your definition of abolitionist because I like the way that you frame it in the book. We historically think of abolition as the absence of something, which you reference right up top in that chapter. But I'm gonna read this quote here. And while abolition is certainly abolishing harmful practices, we also subscribe to Ruth Wilson Gilmore's idea that abolition is about presence, not absence.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:03]: We believe that by working together to build what we need to thrive, we can build futures that do not include surveillance, control, punishment, and policing. We work in a higher education environment where these things are quite common and quite present, especially kind of the monitoring, the control and monitoring of how universities, have managed sexual misconduct in the past. And I would say a lot of that was earned by watching institutions not handle these as well as they could over the course of time. But now we're in a bit of a different space where the government is taking, swiftly different actions. We're recording this in April of twenty twenty five, so we don't really know what the future of Title nine, the Clery Act, Campus Save, VAWA, what those look like in the next session and what might happen through executive order. But one of the things you all focus on is systemic change in the way that we handle these things in higher education. Can you talk a little bit more about what an ideal approach would look like in terms of a campus community?

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:15:05]: So I think you covered a lot there, and I definitely don't wanna speak for Nadeeka or Chris. But I will say, I think what really, like, a major theme of our book is that higher education is so compliant in white supremacy culture, which connects and leads to the carcerality and the lack of community. Like, I directly believe we can blame white supremacy culture for the lack of community and even I feel like what's been taken from us because we've inherited such an oppressive world is how to even build community in true ways. And when fear and being fear of difference and not being able to connect across difference and understand how we are all more similar than not, and that not being something that's taught like, you know, we study education. I work with my k through 12 colleagues. We have created a system to keep us oppressed so that we can be compliant and easily controlled. I get really impatient when we don't, especially as student affairs, practitioners because, like, our whole field was birthed out of meeting a need. When we act like what is created, what we inherited can't be destroyed and recreated.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:16:24]: It's not natural. Someone created it. And we know the history. We know why it was created and to what end. And it wasn't to liberate us. It wasn't to educate us. But inherently, learning is free. Like, just as a human, we come to learn.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:16:41]: Like, anyone can learn. You don't need a system of higher education to learn. Now we're in that dissonance. And so we talk a lot about dissonance in the book, and that's why we say thinking like an abolitionist because until we can fortify community, we can't build the future we need. And so for me, community, true community on campus would look like, first and foremost, campuses recognizing the communities they've taken over and just doing some retribution, healing work to the land, the communities that they've destroyed, pushed out, impoverished, exploited. We need to heal that. I have a ton of scholars who do a lot of, like, participatory action research with community members and so connected to these institutions. So first, we just need to repair and heal.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:17:31]: And then from there, we need to build fire, water, shelter, food. Before we can stop relying on the state and worrying about so much what the federal government's doing, we need to make sure we can feed ourselves, shelter ourselves, cover those basic needs in community. And I remember before a lot of our, like, black communities were decimated when people couldn't cover their rent, when people weren't eating, if you needed you know, if you were sick, like, we were living in such rich community that all of those needs were covered, but we don't have that. And even with the proximity we have on campus, because of white supremacy culture, because of the divide, like, I've been on campuses where people are choosing to sit at different lunch tables. Right? We don't want to really get to know each other outside of our obligations. And so I think, first, healing needs to occur for the pain that's happened, and then we need to meet needs, educate in a more Montessori way. Right? Like, can we focus on just being human relationships, feeding ourselves, healing, working through conflict, then we can get to what's next. Because I think in this culture of forward growth technology, we forget that we were just traumatized, COVID.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:18:46]: Now we're being currently traumatized by the literal, like, takeover of our rights. Like, before it was so under they hid it in policies. They hid it in laws. Now it's like a direct assault on our rights broadly. And so I think they're like, we can no longer move in white supremacist thought. We can't be scared. We have to heal and meet our needs so that we don't have to rely on the state. And I believe that higher ed needs to fully relinquish itself from the state, especially federally.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:19:18]: And even think about how are you serving the institutions and the land that you're on.

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:19:24]: Thanks, Naya, for for all that you shared. I think the part of the question around kind of ideal approach, I think, is a little hard for me to talk about. I think partly one of the kind of abolitionist principles or values that we write about and that I know I hold is this idea of really getting local and like this thinking of Mariame Kaba uses this phrase, like, we need 1,000,000 experiments. And then there's like a whole podcast series and movie around that that concept. So I think that means that we need to be experimenting and trying and learning from our mistakes and failures and what doesn't work. And so I guess to just build a little bit on what Naya said, I think something that I wanna make sure we highlight and that is is important to kind of in my understanding of thinking like an abolitionist and what we write about in the book, but the importance of kind of this internal work and transformation. And so I think part of this is like doing everything at once in some ways, right? Like Naya is talking about really structural systemic stuff, and that is important. And also thinking about the ways in which we are engaging with, with others, the ways in which we are moving through the world.

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:20:29]: And so thinking about one of my favorite quotes is from Adrienne Maree Brown. One of quotes this a lot, but it's from Grace Lee Boggs, but transform yourself to transform the world. And so really committing to for ourselves to be practicing accountability, to be engaging in our own healing, to be tending to our relationships, to think about the ways in which these ideas of punishment and surveillance and control show up in our own lives in the ways in which I'm whether that's in a work context or outside. Right? I am thinking about, right, how does engagement with my my partner or my friends. Right? Like, how am I bringing those those logics in that, like, white supremacy culture that Naya was talking about? How am I bringing that into my interactions in my work and then working to disrupt that? Right? Like, working in community with other folks who can tell challenge me on that. So that's not the only answer. It's just one piece, but I think a lot of that internal work and transformation is an important part of being able to really actualize. And the world that I think many of us want and to feel that liberation is that kind of internal work that doesn't have to, again, happen in isolation.

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:21:37]: It's just it it probably happens best in community and with others, but that is really about turning inward and interrogating where are the ways that I'm bringing these harmful ways of being and ways of relating to my work and to my relationships.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:52]: You both talk about the both end of the individual and the institution of the system, meaning to have some care applied in order to get us to a place where we're able to move forward. I think this is an interesting tricky space because we're all part of the system that we're also trying to change, and sometimes it can be hard to see how to move or shift something so large when we're also inside of it. What are your thoughts on being a part of a system while also trying to change that system and actively participating and also fighting against at the same time?

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:22:26]: I think Nadeeka really touched on a lot of it. It's that you you have to first be doing at all times. It's a continuous you have to be in continuous process of healing and holding yourself in a critical self accountable place. And I think the other piece to that would be making sure you know your values and know when they shift, know your capacity. Like, you have to be so self aware because in any given day in these systems, in these relationships, while we're not free, you never know what will be asked or exploited from you. And when we continue to let that spirit murdering occur, we don't have the capacity to create. We don't have the capacity to support that initiative towards liberation. And so I think it's really balanced.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:23:18]: I remember hearing Angela Davis speak, and she's one of the abolitionist thinkers of my heart. And she really was like, we need like, everyone can't do everything at once. Like, sometimes your goal right now in this is to heal, especially too if you aren't taking space to heal and really meet your own individual needs, have the capacity to do more. And so I think first, especially after just the collective trauma we've been experiencing before anything else, we're in crisis mode. Like, I was trained as a clinician. Whenever you go into these very crisis has just occurred. We're not worrying about big structures yet. I'm just trying to get people fed.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:23:56]: I'm trying to make sure that they're warm, that they feel secure. You know? And I'm tearing up thinking about it because it breaks my heart that we even have to talk about this, that this has been so trained out of us. But I think part of it is balance, values, really knowing what you can and cannot do, and not taking those, like, grassroots interactions as not as not being as transformative as they are. In white supremacy culture, we wanna focus on, like, big solutions, big policies, big change. But I know just creating safe healing space for a student, for a colleague, for anyone, that that's where transformation occurs. And so I think to Nadeca's point about grassroots all the time, we can't take for granted those, like, moment to transform and really show up in those values that we need a model for the new world that we wanna create. Like, we have to be the model of those things. We have to courageously show up as we want to be, not as we were taught to be in this oppressive state.

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:24:57]: Yeah. The only thing I'll add is something that I really Naya is a person who's really, I think, helped me to understand this in a more deeper, richer way. But this understanding that we all have our own unique gifts and strengths, and that point Naya was just making her own, like, we all can't do everything, and we shouldn't. Right? We should be actually bringing to the world, to our work, to our relationships, to ourselves, the specific gifts that we bring. Right? Artists, caretakers, healers, educators, thinkers, writers. So there's this this quote I'll share from the book that Naya wrote. So this is Naya's writing. I understand that as an individual, my power would exist in helping transform as many spirits as I could through counseling, education, caretaking, scholarship, and art.

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:25:41]: And so I just really love that because I think for so many years, I felt like I needed to be to think of myself as someone who's engaging in change work. I needed to be doing all of the things and showing up in spaces and doing things that didn't align with my strengths. And, in fact, I think we need to be creating space for ourselves and for each other to use those gifts and those strengths and to bring those to work, like, in going back to your question, right, to working within systems. So that's the only I I just wanted to add that piece as well.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:26:12]: Yeah. Just to I'm sorry to add to that piece. Because ideally, we're supposed to be living in abundance so that, like, we're able to just move in our strengths. One thing I don't think we wrote about yet and people don't know, we modeled these things in writing the book. So, like, the approach we took in writing the book, we very much held ourselves accountable to the values and, like, to what we were asking people to do themselves. So I just think that's really important to name. And I really am like, I honor the work that we did, and I really honor having Chris and Adika in this, like, coalition against oppression because we really do show up in our strengths and support each other in that. And you don't see it, but that's one of the main things we focused on in writing.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:57]: One of the things that you all do beautifully in the writing is researcher positionality. It's both at the beginning and the end of the book as well as sprinkled throughout, and there are also many autoethnographic pieces that tie into the research. So there's some wonderful nuggets that I won't spoil in advance for our listeners who want to go pick it up. But what I definitely appreciate is that we know who you are as authors. I think so many times when we read books that are kind of making more or less subject subjective claims are presented as objective, and I think you do a very good job of letting us know where you're coming from and the assumptions you're making as authors, as well as the assumptions that you're asking readers to make, before they read the work. So I wanna give my appreciation for you in that. One point that you make that's very strong is that when we exist in a culture of compliance, we are also taking away resources from prevention, which ultimately is the goal of addressing sexual violence and sexual misconduct on campuses anyway. We're trying to free or liberate, to use your language, liberate our campuses from acts of violence of all kinds, whether they be sexual violence or physical violence or other types of violence that show up in community.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:07]: And you assert that healing is a number one way of doing that or a strong way of doing that both in individual and community spaces. Would you mind kind of sharing with us what that could look like in practice for someone who's reading the book and going, okay. I am with you in spirit. I anchor to these principles, but I don't know what that would mean to have it activated in the space.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:28:28]: I think one idea is to first I always have, like, student think of myself. Where are you positioned? And the later chapter the later chapters, we talk about knowing sort of what's in your locus of control. So I think it really depends on where you're doing this work and knowing that you have multiple roles within the work. And so I feel like some people who are like, well, I'm working in Title IX. I'm in compliance. This is how I feed myself. Right? And so this is also, like, I want us to, like, be pulling apart how this is all intentional. Like, it's easy for us to comply when we have to maintain our needs on the compliance itself, like, on these roles.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:29:13]: And so thinking about ways that you're being preventative maybe outside of your role or in conjunction with your role, but it really does depend on the positionality. So sometimes it's hard to give, like, a direct, like, answer if I don't know that person's role. But if I were to give an example, I would think about if I'm coming in working as, like, the director of the prevention office, I would be looking at incoming students and students who have already shown like, we can tell through the literature who might be at risk for causing harm based on, like, showing lack of empathy, past past history of harm, certain aggression, like, certain respect like, certain things that come up already relationally. Like, how are we intervening with those folks as soon as we know those things? So I would be thinking of, like, preventative workshops, infusing relational conflict, managing distressing emotions. We don't teach people these things. So for me, if I was doing prevention work, I would be thinking in that lens. But if I was in title nine, I might be thinking about, okay, how can I pull in literature that's saying exactly what I think and know would be more holistic here to then, like, make the points that I wanna make? So sometimes you have to be really strategic in your position, but I really do think it depends on your position and what you have the power to do. And it always doesn't have to be happening in that role.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:30:39]: But sometimes I've done organizing work with students outside of my role just as a human. So we can get really creative to maneuver around the system.

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:30:49]: Yeah. I think I've had the really amazing opportunity to talk to practitioners in a lot of different capacities in anti sexual violence work, particularly in the context of research. And there are so many folks doing really incredible, I would say, healing work, right, with, like, Nya is saying, within and sometimes outside of their role using, I think, this idea of compliance as instead of it as the ceiling, but as the floor. So we're, yeah, sure. I'm complying. I'm checking the, you know, the things that my institution is, has asked of me given the kind of federal and larger context that we're in. And I'm also meeting the needs of the student in front of. I am, there's so many folks who are working with respondents to really do some of that that work that Naya was just talking about of building empathy, understanding why they're causing harm, really doing that.

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:31:37]: I would say, like, student development work, right, that is direct prevention work. There's so many title nine folks across kind of that I've talked to and met that, right, are thinking about all of the different constraints that they're holding, right, and still working to meet the the healing needs of the student in front of them even within, right, these systems and constraints that they're working in. And so I think I think it really goes back to some of the the things that we were talking about earlier. Right? Like, really centering in our values. Right? Knowing what our lines are. Right? Like, knowing what we are willing to do and not do. Getting creative. Right? Coming back to our specific strength, coming back to community and the networks that we have.

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:32:16]: So we do in the book offer some, some like more specific, like practices, like healing around healing, around contemplative practices, and internal work. And so there's some kind of healing activities or modalities that we offer, but those are just some, I would say, a handful of the kind of creative and really imaginative and dreaming things that folks are already doing. And I think some of the work is around making connections and having conversations and also being cautious again, not upholding one particular thing as kind of a best practice that should be applied across all institutions, but rather really learning from kind of the lessons and the underlying strategies and approaches that folks are using. And I think that's one of the things that the three of us, I know, hope that our current and, you know, future research also aims to do that to really uplift what folks are currently doing.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:04]: You also ask readers to ask their institutions some hard questions throughout the book, which is, I think, part of that abolitionist thinking that you're bringing forward. How are we thinking about the systems and structures that we're upholding, and are they really serving the institution? Are they serving the community members within the institution? We unfortunately are short on time to continue this dialogue, but it's so rich in terms of the read. So, again, please make sure that you go check out Thinking Like an Abolitionist to End Sexual Violence in Higher Education. We are on to our theme questions for the season, which again is the past, present, and future of student affairs. So I have one question on each theme. Starting with the past, what's one component of the history of the student affairs profession that you think we should continue to carry forward or alternatively to let go of?

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:33:53]: I can share this first because it was actually kind of just what I was give a little sneak peek in my last answer, but I think really keeping our focus on student development. I feel like really coming back to centering student development in anti violence work. And I see that as a direct form of a primary prevention and of engaging in healing work. And so I think that centering in our kind of the student development expertise and perspective that student affairs practitioners and the profession bring.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:34:22]: To that, I would say, you know, and it's such an interesting question because of how our institutions were created and to what end. But student affairs was birthed out of, like, a need. Right? Like, we were like, you know what? We need a bit more to make this buff right. And I just love that energy. Like, I love that energy of what can make this better. And I wish that we would just get back to some of that, some of that creativity, that fluidity, that let's just go do it, meet a need, and figure it out along the way. We built a whole profession just from meeting a need. And so I wish that we would let fear go and remember our roots and listen to what students need and what our communities need right now and and our capacity meet those needs.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:05]: Moving into the present, what's happening in the field right now that's going well for student affairs?

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:35:09]: That is a question, especially when higher education as a whole is experiencing so much precarity and uncertainty and questions about the the future, I guess, and and our present. But I think one thing that is actually kind of exactly what Naya was was just speaking about, but I I do I have heard and seen folks, right, like, getting creative, using their full gifts and resources and networks to meet the needs. Like, that's the language I was gonna use of the students in front of them. And so I think in amidst all of the larger context, there are definitely folks in this field who are in alignment with their values, are are getting creative to to serve the students that are in front of them.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:35:51]: Yeah. This is hard for me to answer only because I'm very upset with our collective response. And so I'll talk about what's going on at the grassroots level. But I think right now at the grassroots level, there are people who recognize, like, we cannot continue as business as usual. We must heal. Like, now is the time to heal and strategize. Like, we're not safe. And so I think that right now what's happening is the people on the ground who recognize we can't just continue with the status quo, and we have to heal and really be creative.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:22]: And looking towards the future, in an ideal world, what does the field need to do to thrive towards the future?

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:36:28]: I think we have to do a lot, but I really do believe it starts first with ridding ourselves collectively of this idea that, like, we need to be punished and that doing harm will ever meet any need. In one situation scene where, like, harm has met a need. I know there's even some research on if you pop a child's hand, like, if they're gonna, like, touch a burning stove, like, that's okay. But you could even gently grab that. You know, like, I just feel like there's always a way outside of harm. And at first, we have to do, like, our own individual and then collective work to recognize why are we okay with championing this and how do we release it from ourselves. Like, I don't believe that I live in a world where, like, war is okay. Like, we're killing other people for land and resources.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:37:13]: We're not better than that. We are. So that's my hope for the future.

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:37:17]: Yeah. I think, really, it's something that is, again, really present throughout the book, something we've talked about in this conversation, but moving beyond just compliance. Right? Like, using, again, compliance is kind of that floor rather than the ceiling in our work as a field, and particularly in the context of anti sexual violence work. But I think we're seeing in general at broad in higher education, the kind of challenges with compliance and over compliance and preemptive compliance. And so I think really transformation and, again, addressing the needs of our students really requires moving beyond compliance to to think about what they're actually asking for, what they actually need for their healing and their learning and their growth.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:57]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:03]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a ton of things happening in NASPA. Each year at the NASPA annual conference, the NASPA Foundation recognizes a series of distinguished individuals who have served as leaders, teachers, and scholars in student affairs in higher education. Each individual is nominated and supported for designation as a pillar by colleagues, students, friends, and others who find them deserving of this honor. If selected as a pillar, the nominator and selected foundation board member will raise $3,500 in the name of the individual being nominated to further research and scholarship in student affairs. The NASPA Foundation's Pillar of the Profession award honors members of the profession who have provided significant service to NASPA through regional and or national leadership roles within the association and have created a lasting impact on the institutions or organizations at which they have worked, leaving a legacy of extraordinary service recognized by a cross section of institutional and organizational stakeholders and or have demonstrated sustained lifetime professional distinction in the field of student affairs and or higher education. The nominations for the pillar of the profession are open and are due by 06/06/2025. If you are interested in nominating someone, I would highly encourage you to go to the NASPA Foundation website at NASPA.org.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:32]: There is a video presentation and a slide deck that will explain to you more about what a successful nomination packet looks like, and you can get a better sense of what the expectation is. This is a great way to be able to recognize people in the profession that have done amazing things, and I highly encourage you to think about someone that you will want to that you would want to nominate as a pillar of the profession. The twenty twenty five NASPA conferences on student success in higher education is happening June 27 through June 30 in Denver, Colorado. The NASPA conferences on student success in higher education is a convergence of three conferences in one registration. The conferences offer outstanding professional development opportunities that will shape your learning experiences. This conference is designed to engage professionals in critical discussions about in critical discussions and strategies around assessment planning and data analytics, dismantling systemic barriers to student success, and first generation student success. Each track will address the unique challenges and opportunities within these fields, equipping attendees with actionable insights to enhance institutional effectiveness, promote equity, and foster student achievement. This is a space for collaboration, innovation, and the exchange of best practices across higher education, focusing on the student experience from a data informed equity centered perspective.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:54]: This conference offers a platform for professionals who are committed to advancing equity, fostering student success, and using data driven strategies to enhance the higher education experience for all students. Whether your focus is on assessment, dismantling barriers, or first generation success, you'll find resources, insights, and a community of like minded professionals at the SSHE conference. The regular registration deadline for this conference ends on June 4, so you still have some time to be able to get in to the conference at the regular registration rate, and then late registration goes from June 5 to 06/27/2025. Find out more on the NASPA website. Finally, today, there is a new step by step course called conducting sexual misconduct climate surveys, a step by step course. This is a live web event in partnership with Rankin Climate. NASPA is providing a comprehensive course to meet the needs that colleges have to be able to understand how to develop these important climate surveys. This course will guide you and your team through a step by step process and will provide you with a blueprint for institutions that choose to administer a survey using only in house resources or minimal external assistance, culminating in participants building their own climate assessment plan.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:16]: This training builds a foundation for further data collection and assessment strategies, including general climate surveys and analysis of internal sexual mix sexual misconduct case data and the programmatic assessment to measure the impact of the effects of the efforts you and your colleagues are conducting to move the needle on the indicators on the indications from your overarching community survey work. Again, the live sessions for this begin on June 11, but this is there are three live sessions from June 11, on June 11 from one to 3PM eastern, June eighteenth from one to three eastern, and June 25 from one to three eastern. Find out more about this great course in the online learning community, in the NASPA online learning community. You can reach that by going to learning.NASPA.org. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:43:42]: Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:44:31]: Chris, thank you so much for sharing what's going on in and around NASPA and another lovely and informative NASPA world. And, Nadeeka and Naya, we are here with our lightning round. I have seven questions for you in about ninety seconds. You both ready to go?

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:44:45]: Yes. Yes.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:44:46]: Question one. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:44:51]: Cuff It by Beyonce.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:44:52]: It would probably be some young nudie. I can't think of a title on the spot.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:44:56]: Number two. When you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:45:00]: I think a teacher.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:45:01]: I wanted to be a Spice Girl. Which

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:02]: Spice Girl?

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:45:03]: Well, see, I was like a in between scary, sporty, posh.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:06]: So number six. Spice Girl number six. I love it. Number three, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:45:13]: That's so hard. I will just shout out doctor Krista Porter. I've been really thinking about her lately. She's also making some serious moves in her own career, and it's been amazing to watch, but that's hard to pick the most, but she has been on my mind and heart lately.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:45:26]: Yeah. The most is hard because I really have a community of scholars who hold me down. I I would say right now, I'm thinking of one of my peer mentors, doctor Shonda Breeden. She is just an exemplar for me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:40]: Number four, your essential student affairs read.

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:45:43]: The book that just came into my brain was What It Takes to Heal by Prentiss Hemphill, which is an incredible, incredible book that I think every human would benefit from, including Sunifer's book.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:45:54]: I'm shamelessly plugging our book. It's brilliant, and you need to read it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:57]: Can you title it again, Naya?

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:45:59]: Thinking Like an Abolitionist in Sexual Violence in Higher Education.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:03]: Number five, the best TV show you've been binging lately.

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:46:06]: I just finished, and it's very relevant to this conversation, I just finished the Sex Lives of College Girls on HBO. Not, like, necessarily the best, but it's it's a really good show. And I just, yesterday, finished the the whole series.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:19]: Showrunner, Minnie Kaling, I think. Right?

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:46:21]: Yes. I just finished Severance season two. I now know what the GOATs were for. So

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:27]: Alright. Number six, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:46:31]: I think mine is How to Survive the End of the World, which is by Adrienne Maree Brown and her sister, Autumn Brown.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:46:38]: Everyone knows this about me, but one of my character flaws is I I don't listen to podcasts. It's something with my neurodivergence. I just I can't listen to them. I can't listen to audiobooks. It's a thing. But I can read the transcripts, so I haven't been binging any podcasts, sadly.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:54]: And finally, number seven, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:46:58]: I think a huge shout out to doctor Chris Linder who couldn't be here with us, but is always with us in spirit whenever we're talking about these things.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:47:06]: Yes. I would second that. Shout out to doctor Chris Linder for bringing this just incredible work to life, and I really appreciate her strength. She's just an action oriented person. Like, what she sets her mind to, she gets done. And we really need people like that towards liberation. So thank you, Chris.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:47:26]: And after our show airs and after our colleagues have read the book, if they'd like to join you in dialogue, how can they find you?

Dr. Nadeeka Karunaratne [00:47:33]: You could go. I have a website that has my contact info. It's nadikak.com and has my email and everything.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:47:39]: And you can find me on the Morgan University website. My academic email is there. I'm also available on LinkedIn.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:47:48]: Well, Naya, Nadeka, it's been a joy getting to speak with you and learn about your perspectives and, of course, your book. Please thank Chris for her contribution to the work as well, and thank you both so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Dr. Niah Grimes [00:48:00]: Thank you. Thank you.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:48:07]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners, and we continue to be grateful that you spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill l Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and please leave us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It really helps other student affairs professionals find our show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill Creighton.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:48:46]: That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.