Margaret O'Connor on trusting yourself: Episode 57 of the Feel Better Every Day Podcast

Feel Better Every Day

‘OK, well I'm not going to have children so what do I do with my life? What does life look like? How do I prove myself? How do I validate my existence?’

I so adored talking to Margaret O’Connor and hope you enjoy Episode 57 of the Feel Better Every Day Podcast where she explores her journey with self-care and becoming an advocate for the child-free.

And for this week’s deeper dive for the Sole to Soul Circle, I’m delighted to be sharing more with Margaret O’Connor around discerning our energy levels, the impacts different people have on them and some reminders that you get to choose how you respond to the different demands on your time and attention.

Full transcript

What do I do? Like, what is important or who will support me? You know, and there's the fear because you're repeatedly told that you will die alone and you'll regret it and it's the worst thing you'll ever do. So that you, given that you live in a pro natal society, of course, there's a chance you'll have internalised some of those beliefs and it can be really hard to navigate that.

Welcome to the Feel Better Every Day Podcast. Every Tuesday I release new episodes to help you feel better every day. They're trauma-informed and VAST/ADHD friendly, Self with an uppercase S and lowercase s self-care designed ideas to support you in connecting with and taking care of your Self: that highest, wisest, truest, wildest, most joyful, brilliant and miraculous part of yourself. To create a life you don't need to retreat from.

I hope you enjoyed this new episode and if you haven't already listened, older episodes at thefeelbettereverydaypodcast.com or at selfcarecoaching.net or through whatever platform you prefer.

You can also access lots of free resources to find out more about how we might work together at selfcarecoaching.net and through the book, 365 Ways to Feel Better: Self-care Ideas for Embodied Wellbeing and for deeper dives into each podcast episode, there's a bonus interview with my guests where I have guests or into the theme, as well as access to the complete archive, including the entire Love Your Whole Self chakra journey and you can access all of that by joining the Sole to Soul Circle.

That's S-O-L-E for the sole of your feet. It's a fully embodied approach and soul S-O-U-L, it's a transpersonal approach. It's very holistic and you can find out more at selfcarecoaching.net and evemc.substack.com. So thanks again for listening and I hope you enjoy today's episode.

Welcome to episode 57 of the Feel Better Every Day Podcast. I'm delighted to be joined by Margaret O'Connor, who I only met recently at the IACP (Irish Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy) conference the other week. She was one of the guest speakers and it was a gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous, so gorgeous presentation on the expectations around motherhood and not motherhood.

The permission to be mediocre and child-free was permission I didn't know I needed to hear but it was like, of course. There's so much and I'd love for you to say a little bit about what you're working on about your work, how you got into it and the pro natal society and if I'm asking too many questions all at once!

I'll keep talking so interrupt me if I go too far. Thank you so much for having me, it's lovely to be here and speak with you.

I am a counsellor and psychotherapist. I am based in Limerick in Ireland. I work in private practice and some kind of general counselling and then specifically with a service called Are Kids For Me which is aimed at people who are not sure if they want to have children or not. Or people who have decided not to have children and are kind of navigating that decision. So it is niche which is fine. As well I work with a counselling college so I'm involved in training with people who are training to become counsellors and psychotherapists.

I suppose my own reason for getting into that specific kind of work is because I am child-free by choice. I suppose just to distinguish a little bit you know that's a positive choice that's something that I have wanted to make and obviously that's very different from someone who is not able to have children and that's not their choice. I just want to distinguish that.

But yeah and I suppose you know for me it even feels a bit strange to call it a decision because it's just something I've simply never wanted to do. I have never had that urge or when I was looking at my life or making decisions about what I was going to do it's never something that appealed to me or that I saw in my future.

As I talked about a little bit at the conference I suppose it did move between being an abstract choice around something that may or may not happen you know far off in the future.

And then it became a very tangible choice of like, ‘Oh OK. You know do I actually mean this? You know do I’ll follow through on this?’ when I was about 29. Yeah, I just said didn't really foresee anything changing and as I said I'm 42 and nothing has changed you know my view on that has stayed the same.

So kind of adapting to life of thinking, OK, well I'm not going to have children so what do I do with my life? What does life look like? How do I prove myself? How do I validate my existence? What do I do with all my free time and money? You know, all that stuff.

But it was it was hard navigating that and I suppose that's why. I was in my therapy training at the time. Anyways, I would have been involved in therapy and as I said didn't find it the most supportive place at the time. That really encouraged me to offer you know the specific service to people because I think it's really important. If we skip on to the pro natalism word which is really important.

Pro natalism is the belief that birth is good. It's pro-birth. Which, as I'm always very quick to say, is fine. I'm not saying I'm anti-birth. The problem is we need people and we have more than enough people.

We're not into killing anyone!

But the impact I guess of pro natalism, if you're living in a pro natalist society, which we all do, basically this is what happens.

If a you can't have children or you don't want to have children because really it's such a pervasive. The impact of it is so pervasive. We see it in the majority of religions. Based around the idea that it is good to reproduce and have children.

Government policies, economic policies are around you know family friendly. And that family, I'm air quoting here, family being parents. And you know so when everything is designed with the assumption that a) you want to b) you will c) you can have children what happens when you don't or you can't come under that?

That's why it's hard to navigate that decision if you're unsure. It can be why it's hard to commit to that decision even if you're quite sure because there is this this real divide I suppose or split I'd almost say.

You know, we have so many representations of what parenthood looks like. This is what family, again family with children, looks like. You know there are pathways to follow. There's so little representation and so little positive representation of what life looks like if you're not doing that that it can feel like a void. It can feel like, ‘Well, what do I do like? What is important or who will support me?’ You know and there's the fear because you're repeatedly told that you will die alone and you'll regret it and it's the worst thing ever.

Given that you live in a pro natal society, of course there's a chance you'll have internalised some of those beliefs. And it can be really hard to navigate that. I've gone off now on a mad tangent. I suppose it's just right to put that in put that in context is that it's very, very pervasive and it can be really challenging in lots of way for people. And it can evoke a lot of anxiety or a lot of uncertainty for people.

I do believe, you know, very passionately that it's important to be aware of this. To provide supportive objective spaces where people can address their concerns. As I said there's lots of people who want to have children who are also anxious about it because it's huge. And lots of unforeseen aspects can be part of it. So allowing people to address those concerns, to address their ambivalence if they're unsure or they feel like they're changing their mind, and indeed for people who do not want to choose that.

And we know from statistics like there are more people choosing not to have children. There's a large portion of the society, you know it's around one in four, one in five women now in in Europe and America who won't have children for a combination of choice and not. When you think about that, one in four or one in five people, that's a lot.

Absolutely.

That's not even counting the men who don't get counted, well who never get asked.

Absolutely.

Yeah, so there's a lot of people and, at the moment, they're not being seen. They're literally not being counted and they're not being represented. And that can be so isolating and so stigmatising. So yeah, I'm passionate about it. I'm raising awareness around it and about.

You know, hopefully trying to provide some support for people in that situation. Which is wonderful. I mean I'm postmenopausal now and I remember I did my work experience when I was about 13 I think at a preschool. And I flip-flopped between, ‘I love kids!’ and ‘I'm never having kids!’, ‘I love kids!’ ‘I'm never…’ and because I didn't know the word pro natalism until your session, but because of the pressure, but then… I'm postmenopausal but I had endometriosis. Diagnosed in my 20s so that kind of awareness but your talk was so healing for me.

Just thinking, like I kept waiting for, ‘Is there going to be some day where I'm in floods of tears that I never…?’ and it's all this kind of pressure. My partner has six children but it's a really interesting. Like when you think about the culture and especially Irish Catholic and so many religions where there is that pressure. But I'd love to know how it impacts your self-care and your uppercase Self care and could you tell me a bit about your ideal and actual self-care? Like in the morning? Later on? In the evening?

OK. Getting into the nitty-gritty. Just to reference this, it was like that quote, you know about the right to be mediocre. I must cite my source. So that's from a book by Caroline Magennis it's called Harpy [A Manifesto for Childfree Women] and it came out last year an amazing book. Really, really recommend it. She's an Irish author who wrote about this topic and it's about specifically women who are childfree and she talks a lot about self-care.

I think yeah that I mean there's so much in that sentence actually. Talk about the expectation that's so unspoken. And yes, it weighs so heavy because when you hear something like that, it's like, ‘Oh my goodness! How much does that drive people?’

I do think we're moving away from that. Within the child-free community there's much more acceptance of or even, you know, trying to help people understand like there doesn't have to be this huge reason why you don't want children. Or there doesn't have to be a huge traumatic reason. Because most people think like what is wrong with you that you don't want this? But there are just people who don't want to have kids. That it. Full stop.

Because it's just something you don't want at all or you don't want enough.

Gorgeous. I'm sorry to interrupt but I remember you saying something like you'd never go up to a family and say, ‘What made you have two?’ or like ‘Why did you have the second?’ It's just so rude and intrusive!

Yes! Yes, it's perceived that way and yet I'm sure anyone listening, if you're in that situation, if you say you don't want children, you are asked why. People want a reason and an explanation to justify yourself. Like for some reason that's okay. So first of all, that’s OK. There doesn't have to be this like huge reason. And also, that you are you're not making up for anything. You know it's often seen as like other achievements are like a consolation or a justification. You know, OK, I didn't have children but you know I've done this amazing thing or that amazing thing or whatever it is. That I think there's definitely an effort to try and move away from that but it's really hard.

And I suppose to me that connects like the biggest thing I would see in my client work and in training. It's really interesting as well like we know. And I always I love this. Like, as therapists, it's our job to look after ourselves. It's written in our code of ethics: You are professionally negligent if you aren’t. Like I'm like this is amazing, amazing job like you have to do this and you know I was talking about that with students or whatever but like the blocks. Like how hard it is. And the beliefs that get in the way. I just think this is such a huge or can be such a huge block to people. Like because you don't have children for whatever reason you still deserve self-care. You know, I mean, it sounds such a stupid thing to say we also still need to say it.

You know it's not that well. Because this is the thing that that kind of seeps in. It's like, ‘Oh well, I'm not tired enough’ or ‘I'm not, you know, I haven't…’

Well I don't feel like I have more time anyway but that's what I'm thinking. I can only imagine how people with kids manage because I'm perpetually exhausted and not knowing how I navigate just me!

Same. Like I don't genuine, my God, so much respect! But you know that it's OK that you still deserve, you don't have to justify through this busyness or what you're doing. That self-care is still necessary. But it can be much easier to say than to do. So I would recommend um Caroline's book to unpack that a little bit.

My own self-care, OK.

Well ideal: if you had all the time and energy and money and everything in the world what would you like to do?

What I would like to do? That is a big question. I think live somewhere sunny! The first one which is probably achievable but there hasn't been at the moment. You know, to me, I was thinking about this a little bit today. To me it's actually, they're they are small things to me. Having a day where I don't have to set an alarm or where I'm not like tied to a schedule. Because you know when you work as a therapist you're very time bound.

Yeah, that's a real luxury. It's such a just a pressure off to kind of go, ‘I can get up whenever’ and you know it's not that I'll be in bed all day. And actually to get up and like stay in my pyjamas. I know that sounds so basic but to not have to, ‘Oh my God, I have to have a shower and have to get ready and have to be here.’ Just that luxury of not having to do anything is just divine.

I love that. I kind of hate myself almost for saying this but movement and exercise have become a really important.

We’re mammals! We need to move.

And I never I was and I am not a sporty person and never was but in the last three four years it has become something I actually really value. So I do I try to go for a walk most days. I do like exercise and like weight lifting. One of those who’s gotten into that. And I love it. I like the feeling of it and it's around feeling strong.

It's around like realising what my body is capable of and seeing that progress and it's very hard to think when you're lifting heavy things so it's fantastic. Really shuts the brain off. That's become actually a really important part. I've gone back or try to get back into swimming, something I did as a child but was never very comfortable with.

I'm doing some lessons on that and trying to do that weekly because again it's very hard to think about anything else when you're swimming. It's so immersive. Then yeah I suppose I do and I struggle with this a little bit is because I am quite an introverted person so I really have to manage my social interactions.

Sometimes, there are days I'm just like I can't. Can't. You know. I need quiet and need to recharge. But then of course there's other times where it's great to meet people and be social. I sometimes find it a bit difficult just to manage if there's a busy time, there's a nice things on and like they're lovely to go to in theory but, ideally, I can't do more than one social occasion in a weekend. Which sounds really weird but yeah, there's a there's a fine line for me around that.

What else? I'm very, I don't know what the word is, but like anything with heat. Like, wrap me in a blanket. Put me in a sauna. Anything where I just kind of get to like wrap up cosy and be warm. It's just amazing. So again living in Ireland does you know give you lots of opportunities to need to do that.

Podcasts I've gotten into. I love reading and I had to kind of re-jig that a little bit because I was I was reading a lot for work and they weren't relaxing. So I kind of had to shove that to one side and get back into fiction which I'm really pleased about. And then it said podcast and then I'd have different like I'll have like work-related ones but I'll also just have very silly ones or not very taxing ones. And that's actually something I find quite important . Like things that are relaxing to my brain so whether they're like shows I've watched before or things that don't require like much intellectual effort to piece those in as well. Like it's OK to have that downtime and again give yourself permission. Like it's OK. Like some ways that's just relaxing or fun. That's just silly. Yeah, I think it's very important so it's a little bit of a mix and match I would say.

So what would be the essential if you could only do some of that?

Well again now, I'm a very basic person as well. So in terms of sleep and food, I have such a narrow window on both things. Sleep and food are essential regularly and you know it's sufficient. I think actually at this point it's probably the movement.

I was saying to you you know I was a bit sick there last week and I'm out of routine I. I notice it now like I've if there's a week where I'm not literally like not getting outside because I work from home or I'm not kind of just getting enough of that I definitely notice it so that's interesting like that was not a thing for me 10 years ago uh or even five so that's new. And that downtime. I need that half a day or a day ideally where I can kind of potter around and do my little jobs whatever they are, around the house.

Just to not feel under pressure that I have to be somewhere doing something but that's really important.

Yeah. That's wonderful. And if you could go back in time to your Inner Child at any age or Younger You any adult age, what love, compassion, wisdom anything else would you like to share with her?

Do you know I think it is actually around the introvert thing. It took it was until I did my counselling training that I really realised what that was. And it was okay. It wasn't just like a personality defect and that really was like game changer. Like, ‘Oh, this is just how some people function’ you know. But it's okay. So that was so important. And yeah, as I said I was in my mid-20s when I figured that out so if I'd known that earlier that was probably would have been helpful.

And just to be more compassionate around that and also maybe that piece where I would like have a bit more fun. You know we can all be very serious sometimes. So you have to watch the cat video or you know whatever works for you and that works for me.

And you know that's OK too!

Absolutely. Well thank you so much! And we'll be sharing a bonus video with you for the Sole to Soul Circle but can you tell people where they can find you online? Both your...