Finding Your Way: Overcoming Doubt and Defining Success in Graduate School

Victors in Grad School

Embarking on the journey to graduate school can be both exhilarating and overwhelming. In the latest episode of the “Victors in Grad School” podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Juanita Tookes, Assistant Director for Counseling and Psychological Services (CAPS) at the University of Michigan Flint, to talk about her winding—and deeply personal—path through higher education. This insightful conversation is packed with valuable lessons and encouragement for anyone considering, or already pursuing, advanced degrees.

Embrace Your Own Timeline

One of the most powerful themes of this episode is the importance of honoring your unique path. Dr. Tookes shares candidly about taking breaks between each of her degrees—underscoring that there is no "one-size-fits-all" trajectory through academia. She explains how these pauses allowed her to gain hands-on experience (and even chase a dream of being on America’s Next Top Model!) before returning to her studies with renewed clarity and purpose. Her story is a reminder that whether you go straight through or take time off, your educational journey is yours to define.

The Power of Real-World Experience

Dr. Tookes’ journey highlights the value of real-world experience in shaping academic and career choices. Her early work in a child and family services nonprofit exposed her to social work, therapy, and the complexities of family systems—experiences that informed her eventual focus on counseling psychology. She encourages prospective students to seek out professional experiences, talk with people in the field, and use those insights to refine their goals.

Overcoming Self-Doubt and Imposter Syndrome

Transitioning to graduate school can trigger self-doubt, especially for those who see themselves as “nontraditional” students. Dr. Tookes bravely discusses her own struggles with imposter syndrome and negative thinking, and shares how reframing her mindset, celebrating small wins, and building a strong support network helped her persevere. Her honesty will resonate with anyone who has ever questioned their abilities or belonged in a program.

Seeking Guidance and Paying It Forward

Finally, Dr. Tookes emphasizes connecting with advisers, mentors, and peers—not only for academic support but also for personal encouragement. Her journey eventually led her to help other doctoral students as an academic adviser, filling a gap in support she’d wished for in her own experience.

If you’ve ever wondered what success in graduate school really looks like, this episode is for you. Listen to Dr. Juanita Tookes and gain practical wisdom, heartfelt encouragement, and a fresh perspective on your own educational path.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint, and really excited to have you back again this week as we are working together, as you're going through this path, this journey that you're on to consider graduate school, go to graduate school, whatever part you are in, it is a journey. I say that every week, but it is so true because for every person, that path, that journey is going to look a little bit different. It's gonna feel a little bit different. You're gonna have to work through the things that that you're challenged with as you're thinking about this and figuring it out if this is the right path for you. And that's why this podcast exists. This podcast is here to help you to be able to demystify the graduate school process, but also to give you some tools for your toolbox to help you in this journey. And I do that every week by introducing you to other people that have gone before you, that have gone to graduate school, that have learned some things along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:17]: Maybe everything went perfectly well. I'm gonna guess to say it didn't all go perfectly, but that you learn along the way and you can learn from these individuals and put those tools in your toolbox to help you to maybe miss that stumbling block. But if not, start planning for it and prepare yourself so that as you hit that stumbling block, you have some tools, you have some resources to draw from that'll help you through that. This week, we've got another great guest with us. Doctor Juanita Tookes is with us, and Doctor Tookes is a the assistant director for the counseling and psychological services, or CAPS, program at the University of Michigan Flint. She did her undergraduate and master's degree both at Wayne State University and then went and got her doctorate degree at Oakland University. And we're gonna talk about that journey that she went on to learn a little bit more about that. I'm really excited to have her here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:15]: Doctor Tuxt, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:02:17]: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor. It's always an honor when I'm invited to share my experience. And, of course, I know my experience is individual to me, but I hope something I say can be helpful to someone. So thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:30]: Now, as I said, you did your undergraduate work at Wayne State University. And at some point during that degree in psychology, you made a decision. You made a choice. You decided that you were going to continue on and get that graduate degree. Can you bring me back to that point and talk to me about what was going through your head? What made you decide that you wanted to do that? Because I know that there was a little bit of time between the bachelor's and the master's as well.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:03]: Yes. So this is such a long time ago. So when I graduated with my undergrad degree in 02/2008, I knew that I wanted to go higher in education. I knew that. I knew that I wanted to be a doctor since I was nine years old. Now at that age, I didn't know that there were different kinds of doctors. I just knew that I wanted to be one. But there is the preview of what you wanna do.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:29]: There is the product of what actually comes out of it. But then there's this middle part called the process. So after I graduated with my undergrad degree, I did not go straight into graduate school. My brain was gone at the end of of my undergrad experience. It took me five years to complete that because I did not go to school in the summer. So it took me a little bit longer. And I just wanted to be without school for a little bit. Like, it was very intellectually challenging.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:58]: It took a lot of my time. It was it was a lot. I was proud of it. I was happy that I did it. But I realized, unlike some of my peers who went straight into grad programs, I wanted to take a break. So what ended up happening is I found out through the psych department about, an internship. It was an internship in a child and family service organization in Detroit, and I applied for that and got it. And so what I did is I did my year internship there, and I got hired on as a full time employee.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:04:30]: And I was doing data entry and analysis for this organization. And I actually was there for a few years. And so the way that I look at it is because sometimes I've heard people think that you just have I've heard both sides of this. So people think that it's bad to take breaks. You need to just go straight through. And it's not bad. I think that whether you take breaks or you go straight through, just make sure that you're making the decision that's best for you. It's not about what other people think.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:04:58]: It's about what's best for you. It was best for me because I got to get some hands on real life experience in the area that I said that I wanted to work in. I knew I wanted to be in the helping professions. I knew that I wanted to study psychology. And so being at a child and family service nonprofit organization allowed me to interact a lot with social workers and therapists. This organization mainly worked with teenagers, so I was able to understand some things about the judicial system in relation to in relation to several things. So drug use, abuse and misuse, family systems. We were working with adjudicated youth, so youth that were who had committed some offenses, and they had to go to the court to get those offenses rectified.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:05:48]: Really learning a lot from the social workers and understanding that area, even though that's not what I was going for. Social work really helped enhance my knowledge about resources in the community that can help families, which were was inclusive of therapy. So my decision to go into grad school after my break was it was kind of like an internal it was an internal thing. I was traveling for two years. I was pursuing interests outside of academics. At this time, I was trying to be America's next top model at this time. So I was traveling and, like, pursuing modeling, trying to get assigned to an agency. I was trying to beg Tyra Banks to let me on her show.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:06:28]: But at the end of a two year period, my dreams had not manifested at that point. And I said, okay. We have to make a decision. Either you're going to continue to pursue this or you're going to get that grad school application done and submitted. And I went with the latter, completed my application to grad school, and then got admitted there. And that's how I started my journey in grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:51]: So in that learning that you went through, you as you said, you you worked with social workers, you saw psychologists, you worked with other individuals. And in those two years, you also had to do some other research. You had to determine what type of program you wanted to be in, what type of focus you wanted to focus on. And I know you ended up going back to Wayne State for a master of arts in counseling psychology. Talk to me about what made you, one, decide on specifically counseling psychology, where you could have done social work, you could have done some other type of psychology. What made you decide specifically on that and not other areas? And then conversely, what made you decide to go back to Wayne State versus another institution that might've had a similar program?

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:07:38]: These are great questions. I'm very happy to share. And something you said before was very important. Remember when I said that I was nine and I knew that I wanted to be a doctor? Well, throughout this process, that idea got refined and specified more and more. So at the end of my undergraduate education, I realized that I really wanted to work with families. I really wanted, which is why I got that internship at the Child and Family Service Organization. As I went through that, I got fine tuned even more because then I had to think, you know, did did I want to work in the school setting? Did I want to work in the community setting? Did I want to work in a hospital? Like, what did I want to do? A lot of these things were still unclear. And this is something that my education was very, very and it was very helpful to me in helping me understand what specifically did I wanna do with a psych degree because there's so many things and so many areas that that you can work in and do.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:08:32]: And so I decided to go back to Wayne State because, honestly, I was not familiar with a lot of college programs. So going through my high school curriculum and even in undergrad, I was not really exposed to a lot of college information. I knew about Wayne State because I grew up, was born, grew up in Detroit, so I knew about Wayne State. But luckily and I I'm not gonna say luckily because it was actually a blessing. I was actually accepted to be a part of a trio program, which was the McNair Scholars Program. That was an amazing program that I was in in undergrad, and this program helped students who wanted to pursue doctoral studies. Now at this point, I knew that I wanted to go into doctoral studies. I just didn't know how.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:09:18]: But this program, in my undergraduate experience, it helped expose me to more college information than I probably would have had if I was not in this program. So, we took college tours, you know, out of state. We were able to work closely with faculty members and do undergrad research, but we were able to, at this time, the GRE was a requirement. So, we got to have tutoring with GRE instructors. We had mentorship. So this really helped me define more and more, seeing other professionals and understanding what the grad application process was like. It really opened my mind to other possibilities of what I wanted to do with my degree. So once I started getting this information, I had already had my eyes focused on Wayne State even with the information that I had gained through the McNair program.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:07]: And so I had gotten in, and I decided to then say I wanted to be a marriage and family therapist. So that is the program that I applied to. The curriculum had changed once I got admitted. So it changed from marriage and family therapy to counseling counseling psychology. And I said, okay. I'm pretty sure it's gonna be the same. I wasn't quite sure what to make of the change that was outside of me that had to do with the university. But when I look back on it in in hindsight, I'm appreciative that I did get the counseling psych degree because I am a counselor now, but I started off as a psych major.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:42]: So I'm actually dually educated and dually trained in both of those areas. They are not the same, but they have a lot of similarities. So psych has a lot to do with assessment and, really looking into things from the medical model of how to look at a person's problems and physical manifestation of symptoms. Counseling is not like that. Counseling is more open and encompassing of the human and the human experience, and it really discourages looking at people at from a medical, you know, viewpoint. I think both perspectives are helpful, and the fact that I am trained in both helps me have a very enhanced, lens when I am assessing a person's mental and emotional challenges whereas I have to diagnose and things like that. So it's interesting because once I apply for my PhD, that is when I had more knowledge about other programs that I could possibly do my doctorate at. So I didn't really have it for undergrad as far as going to other institutions.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:11:43]: I didn't really have it for my master's program because about time, I really understood that I could be at other places I was already admitted. So I stuck stuck with Wayne State, which was wonderful. It was a wonderful educational journey being at Wayne State. But what the grad program at Wayne State helped me to realize is that there was reasons why I didn't wanna do social work. I worked with a lot of social workers, and then I thought that the work was great, but I realized just the nuances in the helping professions. There's a difference between a psychologist, between a counselor, between a social worker. Again, a lot of similarities, but I didn't think that I wanted to work so much in the community And being that I call social workers community connectors because they know everything about what is in the community to help somebody overcome an obstacle or a problem. There are clinical tracks with social work to where they can do therapy as well.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:12:35]: But I just knew for me that I did not want to do the community kind of component of the helping professions. But it's interesting, though, because even in my learning experience, I did community mental health. So even though I wasn't a social worker, I still worked out in the community doing in home therapy. I did that for a couple of years working with a behavioral clinic. And so that further defined what did I wanna do and what did I not wanna do. And I realized that working in community mental health is was something that as somebody who is trying to be a psychologist, somebody who's trying to be a counselor, at that time, I was still going for my psych license. I didn't wanna do in home therapy. I also had an internship at Detroit Medical Center during my experience.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:13:22]: And even though I really liked working in the hospital, I wasn't quite sure that I wanted that wasn't a fit for me either. So even though I didn't know what I wanted to do, my experiences through grad school helped me understand what I did not want to do, which I think is equally as helpful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:38]: That is helpful. And I think a lot of times that that's what you have to do is you have to whittle it down. And sometimes you don't know. And but luckily, as you go through a graduate program, that hopefully you've done your research going in and that it has at least the initial building blocks. But then as you go through even further, you are able to hyperfocus and and identify even more so what as a part of, let's say, counseling psychology, what do you wanna do in counseling psychology, and what don't you wanna do? Because there's a lot of facets within that as well. Now I mentioned that you ultimately ended up going and getting that doctor degree, became a doctor. You got your doctor of philosophy, your PhD in counseling education and supervision. And, again, with that degree, you went to Oakland University, and you chose to go in that direction.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:31]: There were a couple of years between the master's and the doctorate, similar to what we saw from the undergrad to the master's. So talk to me about that and the same decision making process. What made you decide Oakland university? And, decision making process. What made you decide Oakland University and what made you decide that at that time when you started in 2016, what, why was that the right time?

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:14:53]: As you pointed out, I have taken breaks in between every degree and something that I want everyone who's listening to this to understand is your path is your path. It doesn't have to look like anyone else's path. If you have to stop and take a break for whatever reason, either you have to or you want to and then jump back into it later, whether you go straight through, whether you change, you know, maybe you switch, you know, your focus, you know, your area of focus, your major, area of study, like, it's okay. Like, this is all a part of you discovering who you are and understanding what you wanna do in this world. So it's completely okay. I noticed that when I took breaks between my undergrad and grad degree, there was a lot of things that I just didn't understand and I didn't know. And and that's understandable. You know, you're growing, you're learning, you're being exposed to more.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:42]: As we know, with undergrad degree, it's pretty well encompassing. You're being, you know, well rounded and exposed to a whole bunch of different, you know, educational areas versus grad school where it's more honed in on a specific focus and area. Between my master's and doctorate degree, I definitely had a better understanding of what I wanted to do, but it wasn't complete yet. But it was definitely more specified than before. So what really encouraged me to apply for my doctorate was I wasn't happy with my with my job at the time. I was working in community mental health. This is when I was doing in home therapy. There at that time, there was not a lot of money in community mental health, so I wasn't getting paid a lot.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:24]: And, again, another something I wanna clarify is you don't want money to be the driving force as to why you are pursuing something. But two things can be true. Money is important. Money is important, but it shouldn't be the driving force or the primary reason why you go out for something. Developmentally disabled population, mainly individuals on the autism spectrum.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:57]: And I would go into people's homes and help caregivers understand what they're doing. And I

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:58]: would go into people's homes and help caregivers understand what they're doing. And I would go into And I would go into people's homes and help caregivers understand the behaviors, of their loved one who was on the spectrum. And this ranged from individuals who were nonverbal to individuals who were high functioning. That was very challenging work. It was very challenging work It was very challenging work working with family systems, people not quite understanding the role of a therapist coming into your home. A lot of times I was looked at as maybe a babysitter where the caregivers did not want to be involved in the process. And so a part of this is educating the family or the caregiver on what the therapist's role is, what the goals are for their loved one, and developing a plan of treatment that can hopefully achieve some developmental goals for the person that I'm working with. But when you are working with someone who's nonverbal, a lot of times communication is through behavior.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:17:50]: And so I would work with work a lot with behavior modification, working very closely with behavior techs and, you know, things like that. And it was just challenging work. And I remember my clinical supervisor at the time because I had a temporary license. I had to get supervised. And I remember him coming in one day, and he looked just so carefree and happy. And I just asked him randomly. I said, what do you do? Why are you so happy? I don't know what kind of day I was having that day. But I just said, how can I get to a place where I'm happy like that when I come to work? And he said, well, maybe you should think about getting a doctorate.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:18:26]: You know, with a doctorate, you have very you have you have creative ability. You can do so many things. You can control kind of how you work and where do you wanna work and things like that. And, again, remember, I told you, like, when I was nine, I knew I wanted to be a doctor. But going through the process, it kind of took me away from that because the process will make you sometimes forget. Sometimes the process will make you discouraged. Sometimes other things will get in the way, and what you initially saw in that preview gets pushed back further and further. And so this question that I was asked brought what was in the back up to the front, and I was like, you know what? Yeah.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:19:06]: You know, let me apply because I want to be in a position where I have less limitations. I wanna be in a position where I have more power to make changes and really do things. And so that's when the application process started in 2016, and I applied for more schools because I had more knowledge of more programs in other areas. I applied to about four schools that were out of the state, including Oakland University that was in state. And to my devastation, I got rejected out of them all. All of them. When the first rejection came in, I'm like, okay. You know, I got a couple more coming.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:19:43]: The second one came in. I'm like, okay. I got I got three more coming. But then when it got down to that last one, I'll never forget it because I asked my my friend at the time. I said, oh, I have the letter from I think it was from Oakland. And I said, turn on the camera. Turn on the camera. And I could already see through the paper once I opened the envelope that there were two sentences on the paper, and I knew what that could mean.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:20:07]: I regret to inform you. I I had already seen that sentence so many times that I already knew that's what it said. The camera was still rolling, and my friend captured my devastation when I read, I regret to inform you. I didn't even read the rest of the letter because I didn't have to. But I'm glad I recorded that moment because I applied again the next year and got in to Oakland. I had only applied to two schools, Western and Oakland. And I got into Oakland, and that's when my journey had started.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:35]: And sometimes you do have to be persevered. You have to persevere through the points that sometimes are not always easy. You may not get in the first time that you apply, and that's okay. You have to keep pushing forward and try again. I I we've said this before, and I'll say it again. You definitely don't wanna put only your eggs in one basket because programs are only so large, and they can only accept so many students per year. So it is important to cast the net, a wide net, to allow for you to be able to be considered. You can still have your your top choices, and you can still pick and choose from that top net, that top list, but you don't want to only apply to that one that you really want to get into.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:23]: And then unfortunately, maybe not get in. And then as Doctor. Tuuk said, the devastation hits and you have to kind of pick yourself back up, push forward and try again. And that's okay. Now you did find success at all of these different levels. You pushed through, you got through, you got your different degrees. As you transition though into each of these different programs, there's different things that you have to do to be successful in the programs that you choose to go into. And the education is different.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:56]: The expectations are different. As you think back to the master's degree, to the doctor degree that you did go through, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into these programs? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of the programs?

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:22:17]: These are wonderful questions, I might say. First of all, I had to make sure that I checked my mindset because that was really the first obstacle that I was aware of every time I entered into a program. So when I entered into my graduate program, the first negative thought that I had was, wow. I've been out of school for a while. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to keep up. I haven't been in a classroom in a couple of years. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to keep up. This is the same thought that I had when I went into my doctorate program because I guess I would have been labeled, which I don't use this label with students, but nontraditional student.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:22:52]: So when I started my doctorate program, I was 31 years old. Everyone in my cohort, which was very small, it was only three three other people, they were in, like, their twenties, like, maybe earlier to mid twenties. And I'm like, wow. And they went everyone in my cohort went straight through. I was the only one who took a break and was working in the field. So I thought, wow. I must be at a disadvantage because they went straight through. You know, I they're book sharp, more book sharp than me.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:23:19]: You know, I'm probably not gonna keep up. And, again, I had that same thought of, I've been out of the classroom for a couple of years. I'm older, you know, than everyone else. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to really keep up with these individuals. So but what I what I did very quickly, more so quickly in my doctorate experience than my master's experience, is I said, okay, you're different. You know, what are the rewards of being different? Well, you worked out in the field, which means that all that's going to happen now is a label is going to be put on what you were already doing out in the field to help you understand exactly what you were doing. So you were using a particular approach, you know, of therapy when you were working at the behavioral clinic, when you were working in the hospital, when you were working in the hospital, when you were working in community mental health. Now you're going to understand everything about that theoretic philosophy and approach, just more fine detail to what you were already doing.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:24:11]: You don't necessarily have to learn things from scratch because you were actually out here doing it. You may not have known exactly what to call it, or you may not have known that there was a theoretical orientation to the depths that you're learning it now. But this is actually what you were doing. So it's actually a benefit that you were out in the field. But there's again, there's also benefits for people who have went straight through. These individuals were more updated on research and other developments in the field. I wasn't really reading articles during my breaks, so I was a little bit behind. But that's why I also had to remember the competitiveness is over.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:24:48]: You got into the program. Now you wanna work with these individuals. So whatever you are a little deficient in, how about you work with your peers so that you can get up to speed on the latest research or conferences, things that you weren't doing, you know, when you were out in the field and vice versa? Because they could also learn from me because I've actually seen it. I've had clients before. I've worked in the community. I've worked in the office. So I can kind of tell them this is kind of what it looks like out here. And so I would say checking my mindset was number one because imposter syndrome, I I would put those two things together.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:25:22]: Oh goodness. People are gonna find out and we've talked about this before, doctor Lewis, about imposter syndrome and how all of these negative even though I got in the program, it's very competitive. And let me say too, when I said that I got did not get into Oakland, I automatically assumed it was because I wasn't smart enough. I didn't find out until after I was admitted that they were doing a curriculum change, and they didn't admit anyone the year that I applied. So but I was already telling myself, see, you're not smart enough to get a doctorate degree. That's why you didn't get in. And so imposter syndrome set in very heavily. And even after I got admitted, it tried to creep back in, and I had to I framed my acceptance letter, put it on my wall so that if imposter syndrome ever tried to creep up again, I could look at that letter and say, obviously, you're capable because you got in here.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:26:10]: So I would say what kept me in is checking my mindset, but also continuing to reframe negative perspectives, being aware of when I'm engaging in negative thinking, and having something set up for myself like a visual reminder of my potential, that can be a direct counteragent to anything that is going to threaten or impede my academic success. I would also say knowing who your supports are. You can only support yourself so much when you are going through grad school, going for your master's, going for your doctorate. It is a rough road. If you think you can make it by yourself, I would say that is not true. Whether it be a professor who you bonded with or an advisor or a mentor or your peers or your family, your significant other, but even your kids. Like, you wanna make sure that you have sources of support so that when you can't generate that confidence within yourself, when you can't reframe your own perspective, you know a lifeline that you can reach out to to help you reframe it. I know my cousin was a lifeline.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:27:14]: When I told her that I was about to quit my doctorate program, she said, but you only have so much left. Like, you can't quit now. Like, you're almost done. If it wasn't for those little cheerleading moments and even those those moments of stern truth about you can't throw this all away. You've worked way too hard. I don't think I could have generated enough energy or enough support or enough cheerleading for myself to actually make it through. So those are and of course, there's other things too. But I think your mindset, how you continue to evaluate that mindset throughout the process, and knowing your supports on campus and in your personal life are just a few of the important things that can help keep you on the track of success.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:55]: And I appreciate you sharing that because I think I do agree with you on those things. Now, as you look back at your graduate education and you think about other individuals that are thinking about graduate school, thinking about possibly taking that leap and going that next step, no matter if it was in psychology or in computer science or whatever area that they decided to go into, What are some other tips that you might offer them that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:28:24]: I would say one thing that I found pretty helpful I did not do this earlier in my educational journey, but I did do it more actually, I did it a little bit later. If there's an area that you wanna go into, see if you can find somebody who works in that area or somebody who knows somebody that works in that area that could give you a realistic perspective about what does it feel like to be in this job. As we talked about, the vision of what I was going to do with my doctorate became clearer and clearer as I went throughout this process. And when I was in my doctorate program, I thought for sure I was going to be a full time faculty. Just teaching about mental health and counselor education, like, educating counselors on how to be counselors. I thought that was what I was gonna do. I had an unexpected pivot where I saw a gap, and I wanted to see how I could fill it. And I knew I could use my degree to do it.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:29:14]: So I actually pivoted from mental health to higher education, and I wanted to see how I could apply my counseling skill set, my psychology skill set into higher education, but not necessarily as a counselor. I didn't wanna do that, and I also not at that time. And I also didn't want to be a faculty. So I'm like, what am I gonna do in higher ed? I know I wanna go there, but what am I gonna do? So, see, there's still question marks. Am I and I'm all the way two and a half years in to a doc program, and things are still unclear. But I realized that advising was a resource that I did not really utilize throughout my educational journey, not in undergrad, not at the master's level, not even really at the doctorate level either. And I realized that there was a huge gap between doctoral students and advising support, specifically with doc students. And so I'm like, I want to see if I can change that.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:30:12]: I wanna give doc students support academically because it's hard. And I was out here doing it by myself, and I'm like, I don't want any other doc student to feel like they're doing it by themselves. And so I'm like, what is a position where I can learn a lot about higher education and provide this academic support, academic advising. So the first thing that I did was I asked around. Because I went to Wayne State, I just looked at kind of like the advisers at Wayne State. I also had a good friend who was attending at Wayne State who knew someone who worked in advising. She connected me with him, and I talked with him about what is it like to be an advisor. We talked about the pay.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:30:50]: We talked about the challenges. We talked about the wins. We talked about the trajectory. And so that gave me I talked to two people who worked in that field already, and I said, I wanna pursue this. I wanna go in and I wanna pursue this. So I applied for an advising position, and I got hired as an academic advisor for Michigan Osteopathic Medicine, where I specifically was working with doctorate students. At that point, I didn't care what the doctorate was in. Could have been in anything.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:31:18]: I just knew that I wanted to provide academic support to doc students, and I was able to do that for two and a half years, and it gave me exactly what I needed to further understand what the next step was. The next step after that, now that I had learned so much about higher education administration, policy, curriculum development, how to handle student issues. And, like, these are all things that I had to learn before the next step was revealed. And the next step was pursuing a leadership position in higher education, which led me to apply for the assistant director position of CAPS here at U of M Flint. So that's where my journey led me, and this is where I'm here today where I am today, rather.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:59]: Well, doctor Tookes, I just wanna say thank you for sharing your own journey, for sharing that with us today, and all the advice that you were able to offer in regards to the journey that you did go on, and I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:32:14]: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:16]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].