Shifting ‘The Base’ of Governance with Matt Fullbrook

The Boardroom 180 Podcast

In this episode, host Munir Haque welcomes Matt Fullbrook, creator of the One Minute Governance podcast and the Ground-Up Governance platform, to the show to discuss his 23 years of experience in more than 300 boardrooms, ranging from local non-profits to global corporations. Through extensive research, Matt discovered that there’s not much consensus in academic literature about the impact of governance on financial performance or leadership effectiveness. This prompted him to redefine governance for himself, moving beyond traditional frameworks to develop a more evidence-based and practical approach that he discusses with Munir.

Matt currently experiments with clients, conference participants, and students to test and refine governance strategies, ones that prioritize decision-making effectiveness over strict structural rules. He stresses the importance of diversity and inclusion in governance, challenging the traditional approach that prioritizes skill sets before diversity. Matt and Munir talk about how diverse perspectives enhance decision-making and should be an integral part of board composition from the outset. Matt’s conversation highlights how he seeks to help boards and executives embrace governance as a tool for success rather than a restriction. He works to reframe governance as an ongoing process of improving decision-making instead of enforcing bureaucratic control.

About Matt Fullbrook

Matt Fullbrook has advised over 250 boardrooms during his 20-year career as a corporate governance researcher, educator and consultant. He is also the host of the One Minute Governance podcast, creator of Ground-Up Governance, and a frequent speaker and media commentator.

Highlights of Matt’s academic career include serving as the leader of corporate governance research at the University of Toronto’s Rotman School, as co-academic director of the joint Rotman-Institute of Corporate Directors Board Dynamics for Executives program, and as Academic Director of the Credit Union Executives Society’s High Performing Boards series.

In addition to his governance work, Matt is a professional bass player with KC Roberts & The Live Revolution, a touring band who have released seven studio albums. He lives in Toronto.

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Contact Munir Haque | ActionEdge Executive Development:

• Website: AEEDNow.com
• Linkedin: Action Edge Executive Development Inc.
  
  

Contact Matt Fullbrook:

• Website: MattFullbrook.com
• Podcast: One Minute Governance
• LinkedIn
  
  

Podcast Production:

• Recording: PushySix Studios
• Production Assistance: Astronomic Audio
  
  

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Transcript

Matt Fullbrook: [00:00:01] There's no consensus on what corporate governance is, whether there's any causal relationship between governance and financial performance, whether CEOs matter or director independence, etc. There's all this dogma out there that I had helped to perpetuate that's not rooted in any evidence.

Munir Haque: [00:00:24] Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Boardroom 180 podcast. I'm your host Munir Haque, an executive coach and senior board strategist. I have partnered with Action Edge Executive Development to lead their governance and political acumen division. In each episode we meet with governance leaders and step into their boardrooms, where decisions shape the world around us.

Munir Haque: [00:00:58] In today's episode, we have Mr. Matt Fullbrook. Matt is one of the most recognizable and respected voices in North American corporate governance. Bringing 23 years of experience to more than 300 boardrooms, ranging from local non-profits to global corporations. As the creator of the One Minute Governance podcast and the Ground-Up Governance platform, Matt has created a massive library of practical insights to master boardroom challenges. Matt serves as an Executive in Residence at the Rotman School of Management, University of Toronto, where he has shaped the future of governance for the past two decades. He is currently the Academic Director of the Rotman ICD program, Working Effectively with Your Board, a program for senior executives. In addition to his governance work, Matt is a professional bass player with the KC Roberts & the Live Revolution, a touring band that has seven studio albums. Welcome to the show, Matt.

Matt Fullbrook: [00:02:02] Thanks for having me, Munir.

Munir Haque: [00:02:03] A lot of things that many of our other guests have talked about that are changing standards or the trend, but I think where I'd like to get to with you is pushing that a little bit, and seeing if you can challenge any of that. Interesting enough, whether or not that's something that you're even challenging yourself, having been in the industry for 23 years. Whether now you're challenging stuff that you were forcing down the throat of your clients and your students over the last umpteen years. Are you starting to rethink some of that stuff?

Matt Fullbrook: [00:02:37] The short answer is absolutely. The most embarrassing illustration of what you're talking about is, and I say embarrassing but I'm a pretty shame-free person so I don't actually feel embarrassed, but objectively it's kind of embarrassing that I came out of that long stretch studying and talking about and educating people on governance. If you'd asked me three years ago, you've got this job in corporate governance, what is that? I wouldn't have had a really useful answer. I certainly wouldn't have had a really useful answer about what I thought 'good' looked like. I would have given the usual, it's about structures and processes and practices and so on. Forgetting the fact that governance is a thing that people actually do and forgetting the fact of, what is that exactly? What's the difference between doing it really well and not doing it so well? It was that realization that I was really struggling to describe, for lack of a better word, my life's work that made me go, I wonder what I'm missing here. When you start digging a little bit deeper, you realize that corporate governance in the management literature is one of the most studied topics. Of the tens of thousands of academic papers, I'm using academic papers just as an illustration here. There's no consensus on what corporate governance is, whether there's any causal relationship between governance and financial performance, whether CEOs matter or director independence etc. There's all this dogma out there that I had helped to perpetuate that's not rooted in any evidence. I've been on this journey to try to, at least for myself, develop a set of definitions and concepts and stuff to try that's actually rooted in something that I believe in, instead of something that's generically embraced, despite the fact that we can't support it.

Munir Haque: [00:04:47] You said that you're trying things, so how do you report back on that and figure out if it's working?

Matt Fullbrook: [00:04:54] I'm going to struggle to answer that second piece, because figuring out if it's working is more abstract than it sounds, but I ...