Interview only w/ Caleb Gayle - Black Moses: The Failed Dream Of Building A “Black State” In Oklahoma

The Chuck ToddCast

On this episode of the Chuck ToddCast, journalist and historian Caleb Gayle joins to discuss his new book which highlights the power of untold history and the forgotten story of Edward McCabe—known by some as “Black Moses.” Gayle traces McCabe’s ambitious but ultimately failed dream of building a “Black state” in Oklahoma, a vision that drew freedmen west during Reconstruction and briefly united Black settlers and Native Americans. From McCabe’s hard-nosed political maneuvering to the competing interests that saw Oklahoma as a battleground for power, Gayle paints a picture of ambition, resistance, and the forces that shaped the region.

The conversation also explores how Oklahoma’s history—from the possibility of a Black state to the devastating Tulsa massacre—has been distorted or stripped down in traditional teaching. Gayle explains the deep tensions between northern Black elites and freed southern Blacks, the lingering influence of Jim Crow, and the ways Native tribes wielded wealth and power. Looking ahead, he reflects on how today’s political climate shapes the writing of history, why context matters more than ever, and what stories he hopes to bring to light in the next decade.

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Timeline:

(Timestamps may vary based on advertisements)

00:00 Caleb Gayle joins the Chuck ToddCast

01:45 What made you want to become a history biographer/writer?

03:00 History teaching in Oklahoma is stripped down to its most jingoistic parts

04:30 When did you discover the Edward McCabe/ “Black Moses” story?

07:30 McCabe was a polarizing dreamer who wanted a place to belong

08:30 Blacks and native Americans found common cause in Oklahoma

10:15 Many blacks moved west to escape tumult during reconstruction

10:45 How did Edward McCabe get to Oklahoma?

13:00 McCabe was a hard nosed political tactician but struggled to win office

13:45 Senators told McCabe that Oklahoma could be a “black state”

15:30 McCabe sold a vision of “if you build it they will come”

17:00 The Republican party was hesitant to create a black state

18:00 Why McCabe was the wrong person to create the black state

20:15 The role of the native American tribes in the early Oklahoma territory

22:00 Powerful interests competed to control Oklahoma knowing it’d become a state

24:15 McCabe spent his resources trying to fight Jim Crow up to the Supreme Court

25:00 McCabe concludes Oklahoma won’t be a black state or place for black people

26:00 What happened to McCabe’s benefactors in the north?

27:30 What would it look like if McCabe had succeeded in making OK a black state?

30:30 The creation of “Black Wall Street” in Tulsa

32:00 The Tulsa massacre upended the idea of Oklahoma being a safe haven

34:15 The wealth of the tribes gave them political power

35:15 Gambling licenses were one of the only reparations tribes received

37:15 Oklahoma was a crossroads state

39:00 What other untold history stories are you diving into, what’s next?

42:30 The divide between northern black elites and freed blacks in south

44:45 The conflict between lineage and freedom in American history

46:00 The influence of the current political climate when writing a historical book

48:00 Handling the source material knowing media bias at the time

50:30 What do you want to cover in the next ten years?

51:00 The importance of history for giving context to the present

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