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Embrace Curiosity to Grow a Vibrant Podcast Community with Chidinma Azubuike - EP 97

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Content provided by Mary Chan, Organized Sound Productions, and Made in Canada. All podcast content including episodes, graphics, and podcast descriptions are uploaded and provided directly by Mary Chan, Organized Sound Productions, and Made in Canada or their podcast platform partner. If you believe someone is using your copyrighted work without your permission, you can follow the process outlined here https://ppacc.player.fm/legal.

How can curiosity and commitment to your listener drive your show’s growth? From guest selection to generating advertising revenue, the process of running your own podcast is always challenging and fascinating, and it often calls on you to take big chances.

That’s exactly what Chidinma Azubuike discovered when she started “But What Do I Know?” back in 2020. Her willingness to keep trying new tactics has paid off—all while working toward her primary goal of fostering a vibrant and thriving listener community. In this episode, Mary sits down with Chidinma to talk show prep, rebrands, and the difference between American and Canadian ad partners.

Discover some fresh ideas for building listener engagement on this passive medium and how to deliver an authentic community resource while also making money. Whether you’re just starting your podcast or have been working away for years, Chidinma’s perspective is sure to have you taking notes and making plans to take your show to the next level.

Learn an exploratory approach to creating an award-winning podcast:

  • How Chidinma turned to life experience to inspire her show
  • When and how to tackle a rebrand
  • Transforming listeners into a real community
  • Making moves to monetize your podcast

Links worth mentioning from the episode:

Engage with Chidinma Azubuike:

Connect with Mary!

Show Credits:

Transcript with Audio Description:

[MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS]

MARY: When looking at new podcasts for something to listen to on your podcast player, sometimes one just stands out. For me, it was quite a few years ago when the title But What Do I Know grabbed my attention. It was nominated for a podcast award and it really resonated with me because, the imposter syndrome behind that question, my need for continual learning, and also learning from a fellow Canadian, which was rare at that time. When I saw the show, Canadian podcasts weren't really highlighted as Canadian, but really it was all about that imposter syndrome part. That little girl's uncertainty that I have that still lingers inside of me even as I am a 45 year old woman today. Right. Like all of this stuff comes up, and it came up through that one question, the title of her podcast.

So I added But What Do I Know? to my list, even though I didn't listen to it, not in the beginning at least, because I wasn't ready to face my inner struggles with that little girl that I was talking about, right? That struggle of, ooh, I actually have to look at this now. Nah. But I'll still save it on my podcast player because you just never know, right? And then I fast forward to last year, 2024, and the podcast was rebranded and it spoke to me even more. I was like, wait a minute, why did this rebrand happen? What's different? What's going on? And it piqued my curiosity.

So I was like, okay, leaning towards the curiosity versus, ooh, do I have to face my inner demons? And that was the change for me. And I decided to hit play because I realized, yeah, what do I know? Because I could learn from Chidinma Azubuike. Chidinma and I chat about her podcasting journey and what success looks like for her now. Because as we know, podcasting is a lot of work. So how does her curiosity and drive to build community work for her podcast today?

This is episode number 97 on the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice.

>

MARY: Chidinma, thank you so much for joining me on the show, because when I saw the title of your show, But What Do I Know? I say that to myself all the time. It's like, but what do I know? What do I know? And I just really connected with you on that. And then the fact that we're both Canadian, like you, a lot of Canadian shows don't get highlighted as Canadian. So I'm really, really glad that you agreed to come on and chat with me today.

CHIDINMA: Yes, no, thank you so much for having me, Mary. I really do appreciate it. And yes, But What Do I Know?, is the story of my life and the story of the phase of life that I'm currently in. And when I landed on that name for the podcast, I was like, this is so good.

MARY: Yeah. Cause I mean, when I started my podcast production and consulting company, I had almost 20 years of radio background, but still I was doing the whole. But what do I know? It's podcasting, it's different, it's not radio. What can I do? What can I share? I don't know, I don't know. It's just, I kept saying that, so. Oh, uh, so connected with you over this.

CHIDINMA: Yeah, like it just so represents just all the questioning. I think it's been a really good place for me to like all the questions about any aspect of life. Like my main pillars for the podcast are, you know, like finances, wellness, and relationships of all different types. So whenever, you know, whatever, I'm sort of thinking, I honestly think of my episodes based on that. Like, you know, I'm going through a period of like, questioning my finances. Then I'm like, oh, let's have a conversation about that. But what do I know about how to build up my savings, but what do I know about how to invest more and stuff like that? So, yeah.

MARY: Oh yeah. So walk me through that process. You're like, okay, I'm having this trouble or challenge in my life.

CHIDINMA: Yeah.

MARY: What does that look like in terms of then building out a podcast episode and like figuring out who a guest to bring on and all of that? Walk me through the whole process.

CHIDINMA: So it's really like curiosity driven, I guess, and what I usually do and now it's become, I guess a well oiled machine, if I do say so myself. And so what I'll do is at the beginning of every season, so in January. My seasons typically run from March to December. Now I have an editor on the team, so thankfully I won't have to take that two month break. We can cut it down to one month. But what I do is in January I will, you know, just sit, kind of reflect, journal a bit and think of the different topics that I want to cover for that season.

So, you know, and again, it's related to whatever I'm going through. It's related to life. It's related to something maybe my girlfriends are asking me about. Like right now, I had a little bit of like a pre-launch event with a couple of women and the common themes were hair. Especially for black women, it's hair and hair extensions, braid in hair. Can you get someone to talk about that? And I was like, okay, cool. Questions have been like hair care or balancing or how to build a sustainable creative business. Like, stuff like that are comments that I get. And of course people love conversations around relationships. Whether it's relationships, your family or, you know, dating is always going to pull people's attention.

So when I kind of brainstorm them, I also have sort of like, an admin coordinator slash social media coordinator as well. She helped me sort of brainstorm some ideas and helps me manage socials right now as well. So the team is growing, but yeah, so we'll make a list of topics and then we'll start searching up guests through either Google or socials are really good, especially TikTok and IG because they help me to get a gauge of the person's personality and character and if they'll be a good fit for the podcast. And so, you know, we'll search, we'll kind of do some tags. We'll search by like, if we're looking for, let's say like a business coach, we'll type in like, business coach. And my podcast is for women of colour primarily, so I'll type in, you know, business coach WOC, and IG is pretty great with all the tags and filters. I'll end up finding somebody that fits the profile.

And then once we find someone, it's now a matter of reaching out, pitching someone, sending that email that includes, you know, the stats for the podcast and generally what we're about. And then it's a couple of back and forths with the gap with the potential guest before we then lock in a date. And then closer to our recording day, I'll send instructions, important instructions, like, you need a wired headset, I'm not doing the Bluetooth…

MARY: Oh, gosh no.

CHIDINMA: …anymore. Please don't show up, like, no, no, no, that's not acceptable. You know, like conversations, topics, things like that I used to do and I still do sometimes, like a pretty call before we record just to get to meet the guest and warm up a little bit. But sometimes if you're a repeat guest or if I kind of have a sense of who you are or you have a podcast yourself, we can kind of skip that phase. And then, yeah, and then we get to the time we record and then once we record, it's now on that post production end and market end. But yeah, that's, that's the process.

MARY: You were saying that, you know, the team's growing. You have some people working with you too.

CHIDINMA: Yeah.

MARY: But I'm sure like, like most people when they start this podcast like you started in 2020…

CHIDINMA: Mhmm, yeah.

MARY: …it was one woman show is my guess.

CHIDINMA: Yeah, it was a. It was a one woman show. I had another person, she was a good friend of mine, went to school together. She's a great graphic designer. And so, we went to school for like, urban planning, urban design together. So she really tapped into her design for me. Okay. Yeah, she designed like, the initial iteration of the logo and she was also, she also created the COVID art. She wasn't a photographer, but she was at my rebrand photo shoot for cover of the podcast right now, cover art…

MARY: Nice.

CHIDINMA: …Yeah. So Haley is her name. She has been with me through like day one. But in terms of producing the podcast, it was just me. So I was doing the research, I was reaching out to guests, I was recording, I was producing, I was cutting reels, I was posting. And initially I chose podcasting because it's audio. Like a podcast is an audio format. But now, you know, people want to introduce video, people want to call video shows podcasts.

MARY: Yes.

CHIDINMA: They're not. Okay, let's just get that clear.

MARY: It's a video show.

CHIDINMA: It's a video show. But I understand that y' all want me to do videos so you can push my content. I get that, but I am not, I'm not the biggest fan of that. Like, I chose podcasting for a reason, because I didn't want to feel pressured about, you know, your image on camera and looking good all the time and presenting and performing in a certain way. It has definitely made it a little bit harder, but I'm grateful because now I can tap into an audience on YouTube right, as we start to grow that way. But yeah, yeah, it's definitely come a long way. Yeah.

MARY: So why the rebrand, though? I know there was rebrand in the middle there.

CHIDINMA: Yeah.

MARY: What was that deciding factor to make that happen?

CHIDINMA: Mhm. The rebrand was in the beginning of 2024, last year. Yes. So the rebrand was because the initial cover art was not a cartoon, but it was like an animated cover art. Like it didn't have my face. Yeah, it was to represent me, but it didn't have my face. And I felt like, you know what, I've done this for three years. I'm on video now. I'm showing my face, I'm confident, and I wanted something that was a little bit more bold, more like fierce on the cover. And so I feel like the current cover really represents that. And I just look fire…

MARY: Yeah, it looks great.

CHIDINMA: …Right? But I felt like, yeah, I think it took time for me to kind of get, like, step into that. And so last year was the perfect time to kind of rebrand. I also wanted people to see the cover and see who they would be listening to. And so, yeah, yeah, that was sort of the cause for that.

MARY: Did you change anything about the show instead of just the cover?

CHIDINMA: What I did. I think when I did that subconsciously and maybe a little bit consciously, I think I started to become more personal. When you start a podcast and depending on who you are, for me, this. This was the case. I felt like I had to put on, like, a professional voice, quote, unquote.

MARY: Yeah.

CHIDINMA: And I didn't because I didn't want to fall into the trap of having a podcast where it was, quote, unquote, just two friends chatting-ish. Or just chilling. And I was like, I'm not like, you know, I feel like people don't take those podcasts seriously. So to combat that, I felt like I had to, you know, maybe like, sound uber professional or like, sound like I was like, I did like, research for certain topics and stuff. I still do, but it's just a lot more, like, personable now. Like, my personality is really showing through. I'm not afraid to, like, cuss here and there because it's, you're getting me, you're getting the full person, you're getting my stories now you're getting more of me, right?

So I think that is what I would say, especially 20, like, ending of 2023, 2024, you really start to see that, like, 2022, 2023, you got bits. But towards the end of 2023 and 2024, it was like, yes. And even more so this year, this year, just by virtue of where I'm at in life, the things that myself and my girlfriends are dealing with, a lot of our conversations are being more vulnerable. Like, we're talking about friendship breakups, where I was the one that made a mistake. We're talking about, you know, relationships and having to end them. We're talking about me, you know, losing my job due to the market. And we're combating and tackling those things, right?

I like it because then the audience gets to connect with not just the material, but with me, but still in a healthy way, because I'm never going to get on the mic and say, this is what I did, you should do it, too. This is for information. This is storytelling and a little bit of entertainment too, right? But I think that podcasting is a healthy medium to where people trust the voice, because I've been doing this for so long and I've been doing it based on research and having experts and reputable like girlfriends come on and we talk about it and we're doing it earnestly, we're not doing it maliciously. Like I'm never going to get on the mic and start chatting, ish. And not citing sources and stuff, right? So, yeah, I think that that's, that's been really, really something that I have focused on, you know?

MARY: Mhm. I can hear it too in like the different segments that you have.

CHIDINMA: Yes.

MARY: And how you are.

CHIDINMA: Yeah.

MARY: And in your most recent episode you talk about getting, losing your job and that's very personal. But you walked around that to be like, hey, let's talk about this when I'm ready to do it. You know, it is your show, so I feel like there is a lot of community that you've built. But describe to me when your podcast really became like a community for you and had an impact for you. What does that mean?

CHIDINMA: I think 2024 as well. I think when I did the rebrand, I pushed myself to do a pre-launch for that season and I invited about 10 women listeners, some of them were also podcasters themselves. And we did a pre-launch party where we watched 15 minutes of an episode that was to come and I revealed the cover art. So people, so they got to see the cover art before anybody else. And we just like, talked about what the podcast season was gonna look like. That was step one.

And then I think as much as social media has made it a little bit harder now in terms of reach and engagement, just showing up regularly, people are consistently seeing like, oh, she's serious about this. And people are, you know, commenting, sharing and they're also encouraging me. And I honestly think we might need to have this conversation again next year [LAUGHTER] because I think this year is when I'm really pushing myself to solidify the community aspect. So like, we have an upcoming movie, screening for Black Canadian film, yeah, Village Keeper. And I can actually share this if that's okay with you. Yeah, it's on May 29th in the evening and I'm sharing all about it on socials. So you can catch that there. Or if you listen to the most recent episodes of the podcast, the link is in the episode description.

But yeah, we're, we're screening that and it's virtual. And so now I'm kind of testing myself to say, okay, who feels connected to this? The conversations that we're having on the podcast, who is, who wants to show up because of podcasting, it's very passive. So it's one thing to have people listen to you and enjoy the conversation. It's another thing to have people start coming to events or to want to pay for content, or to leave their house and show up for in person events, right?

So now I'm really seeing it. Like, one of the first things was I thought I could make a discord for our community. And I made a discord, actually. And then like a couple of people joined and then it was like I was hearing from a lot of women that like, you know what, I actually don't want to make a discord. I don't want to join a discord. It's another app.

MARY: Yeah.

CHIDINMA: Some people are like, I'm married, I have too many apps. And I was like, okay, I hear it. So you know what it seems like for my community newsletters would be good. So now I'm working on newsletters. So you're going to get a newsletter monthly about episodes and any events coming up. And then we're just going to keep using IG, like Instagram and have the IG community function and then get give out notifications there. And I've made that group really, really small and I'm inviting certain accounts that I know engage with the podcast.

So those are things that I'm trying. I'm also noticing that, like, I have to say things multiple times on the podcast…

MARY: Oh yes.

CHIDINMA: …for people to take action. Like, that's just. It is what it is on Instagram, because I've been showing up so much, even though reach is reduced, people will still kind of, you know, complete a survey or poll. So that has also been helpful too in terms of like, getting surveys about what the community wants. Like, people are saying that they want events, people want community events, virtual, they want to feel like they're connected with other listeners.

So people do want these things. I just think that with podcasts and it is a little harder because it's a passive medium. It's not like YouTube where while you're watching it, you're typing your comments and you're going back and forth. Like, it's very much like, I don't see the account that's listening to this, especially if it's Apple podcasts. Like, I just see that someone is listening, so yeah.

MARY: Mhmm, and I think that's a lot of the challenge that podcasters have is that like you said, it is passive. It feels like a one way street conversation where you're just talking behind the mic and then you gotta wait a while before you hear back from the community.

CHIDINMA: Exactly.

MARY: And also, like you said, you just have to repeat yourself a lot. And that is part of the audio medium. When I worked on radio, we were always told the best audio has to be repeated seven times in order for someone to get that into their brain. And even then, so because of that repetition, they might not need something right away, but because it's in their brain when, when they do need it, in that moment, they'll think of you and they'll think of what you've said so far and really want to work with you.

And so I think that's why a lot of people that start a podcast and they use it for a marketing purpose, right? Because they have a weekly show or bi-weekly show or whatever, you're in people's brains, you're in people's minds and hearts and ears. And so when they think of, oh, I need this, I'm going to work with the podcaster that I've been listening to the whole time. But, you were saying to me too that you also monetize your podcast,...

CHIDINMA: Yeah.

MARY: …so you do make money, which is different from just using it as a marketing piece for your brand. So walk me through that and what does that look like for you in terms of what does success look like for you?

CHIDINMA: Okay, so in terms of, I guess building the brand, I personally didn't care for building a personal brand because, right now I still have, you know, a work life outside of the podcast. And I didn't see myself, I still don't necessarily see myself and the things that I do as a brand. And I, I'm not interested in developing like, a personal influencer type of brand on socials.

MARY: Right.

CHIDINMA: I am more so interested in building my platform and you can kind of know me through the podcast. That's what I'm more so interested in, right. So that's that. So with that, in terms of then monetizing that podcast monetization is so different from m other, I guess more visual influencer work because depending on what brand you're working with, you're not necessarily coming on Instagram to show like you're not doing like, a get ready with me with this makeup brand. You're reading an ad on the podcast. And so, what has worked or is working for me is working with agencies, are working with the network to connect me with brands. A lot of them are American and they're bigger because they have marketing budgets. And they're not the like beauty brands that people, some of them are, but they're not the beauty brands that, you know, you see on Instagram. But they're lifestyle brands. They'll be like your Cozy Earth. Of course everyone is who has ever listened to a podcast has probably heard of like, Better Help and there's like Squarespace and EarnIn who I work with. Cozy Earth I've worked with.

So I look out for brands that are like lifestyle, wellness, functionality, like finance, sort of like education or finance, um, help apps, like, you know, apps where it can keep you on track with your finances, stuff like that. Those are the brands and companies I find have the budget that can pay for multiple episodes. Like, I don't want to work with a brand if you're going to ask me to read an ad for one episode. That makes no sense to me.

MARY: Yeah, like we said, we need that repetition.

CHIDINMA: Exactly. It needs to be at least three and, or honestly five if we're being honest. And so, yeah, so that's working. I think right now a lot of my like, brand partnerships or ad campaigns are like three figures. I just landed a four figure one, like a good four figure one which I'm like, ooh, from one brand? Great, let's, let's get the ball rolling, right? And then on top of that, what also works is if you host your podcast on platforms like Red Circle, Acast, Megaphone, they will drop ads into your podcast and you go in and you can kind of like set certain like, ad locations on your podcast. And so because I host my podcast, a Megaphone on our network, Spotify will just drop ads there based on my ad location. And so far my average for that has been like 300, 300 to 400 a month. Which is not bad, right?

MARY: That is not bad.

CHIDINMA: Yeah. So with that plus like the brand stuff here and there, that's like, I'm doing okay. But again, podcasting, I mean influencing in general and content creation, it does take time to be able to work a brand. Like, it really is relationship building. Like the four figure deal I said I just landed, it was because I worked with that brand last year and they only sponsored three episodes. But this year they want to do it from like, may to like, almost the end of the year. So you know, like, it, it obviously results in a, in a higher amount. But yeah, it's a lot of relationship building. It's a lot of touch points, a lot of emails, and unfortunately, from my experience, right, because again, I work with agencies in the U.S. that connect me to some of these brands, like through my network.

But on the local level, I have tried and I even, like, paid someone who, who was just part time with me. She was helping me, like, do, like, brand outreach. I have found that Canadian brands just don't seem to have money or they don't seem to understand how podcasting can be important for their marketing strategy. So a lot of times you're setting meetings up and it's like, hey, I had one with this beauty brand and we're actually going to do a collaboration together, so I'm not going to say what it is.

MARY: Yeah

CHIDINMA: And they're great, but they're a B corp, so they don't have a lot of money to put towards marketing right now. And then I had another brand, and even without saying if they had money or not, it was like, hey, we can give your listeners, like a free trial. And I was like, I'm looking for money. But yeah, I don't know, it just seems like Canadian brands so far are just more conservative in spending and that, that is in our nature. Like, if you compare U.S. and Canada, like us, you know, people are consumers, but they are also very entrepreneurial in spirit. So people are not, I feel like people are a little bit bolder in their spending, especially when it comes to things like ads, content. People do it because they see that that is business, that that is work, right?

And they spend the money because they make the money through, you know, entrepreneurial things or their own business. And they're just more advantageous when it comes to business content entrepreneurship in the States versus here. We are very, we hold our hands a little bit tighter because we don't see a lot of opportunities. So we're, we're reserved in how we spend. And so I don't blame the brands for being conservative with how they spend in terms of marketing. I just wish that, you know, they would take the risk to just be like, okay, if I give you like, $500 to $1K sponsor three, four episodes. Let's see what, let's see what you do. You know, but we'll see.

MARY: Yeah, that's, the Canadian market has always been a tougher market to crack in, even in the broadcast world. You know, it's a totally different market. And Canadians are, we're slower to learn about and use podcasting as a listener. So, yeah, we're, we're slowly seeing us spend a little bit more just because there was more awareness, but because we started so low, that spend amount is still going to be so much lower than the U.S.

CHIDINMA: Exactly. Yeah. Another thing to keep in mind is the CPM, which is like the cost per mile, but it really is just like the cost of brand. It's paying you per thousand listens on that particular episode or on your podcast overall, I think the industry standard right now was like 25. So some companies, I think it's like 20 to 20, oh, I don't want to lie to your listeners, [LAUGHTER] but I've seen 25. I've, I've worked with 28, I've worked with 21. And my lesson that I'm learning is if I'm working with an agency and they have to take a cut.

MARY: Yep.

CHIDINMA: I'm doing my best to negotiate for at least 25 per thousand. It gets harder because then if you're a podcaster and you're not making like, you're not getting 10,000 downloads a month, like, that math will just feel really discouraging…

MARY: Yeah.

CHIDINMA: …like 25 for every thousand. So if you, only if you get 5,000 a month, then you're getting, you know, 25 times five. What is that, like a hundred and something a month? So it could feel a little bit discouraging, but if you have like, 40,000 downloads a month or like, 30,000, which is where I'm at, then it's a bit more a month, you know?

MARY: Yeah, exactly. And I think that's where a lot of listeners worry about the monetizing bit, right? Because you do need those numbers to back it up. And for even agencies to even want to start working with you is to have the numbers. But it's not all about the numbers, right? For you, it's also about building that community aspect. So how do you then refocus on the community stuff? So it's not always going to be about finances and money, money, money.

CHIDINMA: Exactly. And I think so, honestly, the most realistic and honest answer that I can give for that is, it takes money to run this thing. So as much as I love the community aspect, I still need to be able to sustain this. But what I'm trying my best to do is to not rely on my community for the money. Like, I do want to start a Patreon, but again, people are just coming around to the concept of paying for content, so it'll be hard. I think, like that's, that's, that's another leap.

And so I think for me I'm really pushing to get my money for the podcast and my media work from companies and brands and sponsors so that the listeners and my community can, you know, either attend events for free, listen to content for free, and then in person events or some virtual offerings will be like an affordable rate. And maybe in a year I'll change my mind because, you know, the business strategy has changed. But I'm trying to not depend on my community for money. I just feel like that that’s harder, you know, so.

MARY: Especially when your community is also talking about finances and struggling.

CHIDINMA: Exactly.

MARY: You know, losing their jobs and all this stuff too. Yeah, yeah. So, especially when you started out, you know, let's look back, reflect, what has really surprised you with the podcast?

CHIDINMA: Oh, that's a good question. I feel like hmm. I feel like my growth to a certain extent has surprised me. I think when I first started, I really worried that people weren't going to want to listen because it's not a pop culture podcast. And even though, like,I basically do, like, edutainment, like, I'm educating you, but I'm also, like, entertaining you, right? And I was worried that we weren't going to, like, it wasn't going to seem like it was fun enough that people could listen to for an hour. But I was, you know, greatly, I was, I was wrong and I'm so happy I was wrong. And so I think the growth really surprised me, but I think the amount of work surprised me and the amount of work continues to surprise me. [LAUGHTER] Like, it doesn't surprise me now, but it just continues to increase, especially with each level that you get to. To where I'm like, damn, like, in 2020, I really just thought like, record, do a little bit of editing, put it out, record, do a little bit of editing, put it out. And that, that was okay for like 20, for people who started way back or 2011, 2012, that was fine because it wasn't that, like, saturated or wasn't, there weren't that many people starting podcasts back then, even up until, I want to say, 2018, 2019. But from 2019, when Spotify started telling everybody,...

MARY: Yeah.

CHIDINMA: …hey, you get a bag and you get a bag, exclusive deal for you, that's when people were like, oh, I want to start a podcast too. And then every, like, it just like, it was like, the amount of work that it took to separate yourself increased. Now you needed video, now you needed Instagram pages and TikTok pages for sure. Now you might need a website for SEO. Now you need a team. You need someone to help you on, send out emails to guests. You need someone to help you with socials. You need a graphic designer. You need someone to help you on Canva. Like, yeah, the amount of work, woo.

MARY: Yeah, I know. I loved, like, in the beginning when I saw, like, all the celebrity podcasts come in, and at first I was like, oh, man, you just, do we need another celebrity podcast? And but, then I was like, but wait, they're growing the industry. The industry itself is being well known. You know, and then I, then you'd see shows actually center around podcasting. And now. But then it's like, oh, every mother and their dog now has a podcast. And it, like you said, does saturate the market. But I loved seeing how the industry has grown and has been accepted as, like, the norm.

CHIDINMA: Yes.

MARY: And even today, I read a headline like, the Golden Globes is going to now give out a podcast award.

CHIDINMA: Wow. Because I know, like, there's the Podcast Academy already. Like, there's the Podcast Academy, which is like, I guess, like the podcast equivalent of Grammys. So they give out podcast awards.

MARY: Yeah.

CHIDINMA: And then, of course, you have the Signal Awards, which we won one. Thank god. There's so many different awards for podcasting that don't just have to be like, podcasting award. Like, we also want to communicate our award last year in 2024.

MARY: Oh sweet.

CHIDINMA: And I was like, okay, because you're communicating on the mic. I was like, this is, wow, wild. That's nothing. That shocked me, like, the awards, right? And so my next one that I am looking out for is, like, maybe the Webbies when we grow a bit more. And the Podcast Academy one. I definitely have my eye on those. But yeah, like, I'm so grateful that people are seeing podcasting as work. And it takes a team.

MARY: Yes. Exactly.

CHIDINMA: You know, and so that's why, unfortunately, sometimes you see bigger networks and companies betting on people that already have a name so that they can bring an audience.

MARY: Exactly. And that's why there are so many celebrity podcasts. [LAUGHTER]

CHIDINMA: Exactly.

MARY: So aside from the awards and that stuff that we had just talked about, what else are you really excited about podcasting right now?

CHIDINMA: Oh, honestly. So on, like a micro level, I'm honestly excited to just put out my next episode. I feel like the next one is really, really great. We get deeper into, like, my, you know, current life update with work and everything. So in this space that I am, I'm getting re-excited about, like, the episodes, and recording, and putting them out and just people hearing them like, that is really exciting to me.

I also think last year I was more like head down and my 9 to 5 was really busy, so I didn't really get to go out. But this year I would like to see if I could attend more, like, in person podcasting events. Like, I'm excited to meet other podcasts. I recently have attended a couple of networking events here in Toronto that I've related to podcasting, like, the Podcast Summit. And there was another sort of, like, more exclusive one, but I'm hoping to get out to, like, the Podcast Movements and the big ones. Um, maybe one. I know there's one in August. Hopefully I can get out to that one. We'll see. But yeah.

MARY: But yeah, nice. Yeah, I love that you were saying the micro. Because at the core of podcasting really is recording those episodes, right? They are just talking and then, yeah, in the broader sense of meeting other podcasters. And I have the same buzzy feeling too. Like, I just want to get out and see people again. And I'm thinking about checking out Pod Summit YYC in Calgary this year. It's in September. And yeah, seeing that the Canadian aspect of the industry growing as well. And so that's not all focused on the U.S. and always going to the States for podcast movement and evolutions and all that stuff, which is great, but also seeing the Canadian side grow. So maybe I'll catch you in person at one of these events one day.

CHIDINMA: Yes, fingers crossed. I hope we do.

MARY: So on that, thank you so much, Chidinma, for joining me. This has been such a fun conversation, getting into the insights of your show, and I could ask you about a whole bunch of other things that I'm like, oh, I need to know more about this and that, but another time.

CHIDINMA: Yes, for sure, for sure. Let me know. I'm definitely open to having more conversations about this. I feel like it's so helpful for, you know, upcoming podcasters, current podcasters, even just listeners, to know, you know, how they can support the podcast that they listen to, right? So thank you so much for having me on. This was so great, Mary. I do really, really appreciate it.

[MUSIC IN]

MARY: What I'm really struck by, Chidinma, is that evolution, not just for the podcast itself, you know, the rebrand and everything, but the evolution of herself, her confidence, yet still staying humble to always asking, yeah, but what do I know? I appreciate that she reminds me that we're always learning, no matter where we are on this podcasting journey. We learn from each other. We learn from the process of just doing. And from the product itself, the podcast, there will always be turning points in life and it's using that curiosity to figure out what the next steps can be. And that she's willing to try and experiment.

Sometimes after you produce a show for so many seasons, it's easy to just like, sit back and keep doing the thing that you always do, right? It's like, oh, I've done this before. This is easy. I'll just do steps A, B and C, podcast is done. But I love that Chidinma is always looking to learn and grow alongside her podcast with her listeners. So whether you're just starting your podcast or you're looking to grow and monetize like she did, but when it comes down to it, the podcast really is about your listeners.

So it's what she's doing on her show for and with her community. And like I said on the episode, and I've said many times on this podcast, it's not about you. It's not about you as the host, or it's not about you if you're a guest. It is about the listener. And for Chidinma, it's her community and being curious to find the next topic or theme to help her community grow, not only in, like, growing her community numbers in that sense, but to grow in each listener's own learning journey. So thank you again to Chidinma for being here and sharing her podcasting journey. And especially learning. I get to learn from someone who's brought success on her own terms.

So in the next episode, let's continue this idea of curiosity. I'm going to ask the question, how does curiosity play a significant role in your podcast, especially for interviews? I started thinking about this because I had a conversation with my daughter. And like I've always said before too, a lot of my work is intertwined, right? It's not just about podcasting, but it's life and how does that work with the podcast and family and everything is just connected. And this is part of the show prep stuff that I always learn from radio. Things you do on the day to day can be brought to life on the podcast. And so I want to bring this idea that my daughter and I had about asking questions to bring out stories that you want to hear, to be a stronger storyteller, and to have really in-depth conversations. So when you become curious, your conversations have the potential to be really, really juicy. So I'll catch you next time on the show.

[MUSIC ENDS]

>

MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you’d share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

>

[MUSIC ENDS]

…   continue reading

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Embrace Curiosity to Grow a Vibrant Podcast Community with Chidinma Azubuike - EP 97

The Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice

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How can curiosity and commitment to your listener drive your show’s growth? From guest selection to generating advertising revenue, the process of running your own podcast is always challenging and fascinating, and it often calls on you to take big chances.

That’s exactly what Chidinma Azubuike discovered when she started “But What Do I Know?” back in 2020. Her willingness to keep trying new tactics has paid off—all while working toward her primary goal of fostering a vibrant and thriving listener community. In this episode, Mary sits down with Chidinma to talk show prep, rebrands, and the difference between American and Canadian ad partners.

Discover some fresh ideas for building listener engagement on this passive medium and how to deliver an authentic community resource while also making money. Whether you’re just starting your podcast or have been working away for years, Chidinma’s perspective is sure to have you taking notes and making plans to take your show to the next level.

Learn an exploratory approach to creating an award-winning podcast:

  • How Chidinma turned to life experience to inspire her show
  • When and how to tackle a rebrand
  • Transforming listeners into a real community
  • Making moves to monetize your podcast

Links worth mentioning from the episode:

Engage with Chidinma Azubuike:

Connect with Mary!

Show Credits:

Transcript with Audio Description:

[MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS]

MARY: When looking at new podcasts for something to listen to on your podcast player, sometimes one just stands out. For me, it was quite a few years ago when the title But What Do I Know grabbed my attention. It was nominated for a podcast award and it really resonated with me because, the imposter syndrome behind that question, my need for continual learning, and also learning from a fellow Canadian, which was rare at that time. When I saw the show, Canadian podcasts weren't really highlighted as Canadian, but really it was all about that imposter syndrome part. That little girl's uncertainty that I have that still lingers inside of me even as I am a 45 year old woman today. Right. Like all of this stuff comes up, and it came up through that one question, the title of her podcast.

So I added But What Do I Know? to my list, even though I didn't listen to it, not in the beginning at least, because I wasn't ready to face my inner struggles with that little girl that I was talking about, right? That struggle of, ooh, I actually have to look at this now. Nah. But I'll still save it on my podcast player because you just never know, right? And then I fast forward to last year, 2024, and the podcast was rebranded and it spoke to me even more. I was like, wait a minute, why did this rebrand happen? What's different? What's going on? And it piqued my curiosity.

So I was like, okay, leaning towards the curiosity versus, ooh, do I have to face my inner demons? And that was the change for me. And I decided to hit play because I realized, yeah, what do I know? Because I could learn from Chidinma Azubuike. Chidinma and I chat about her podcasting journey and what success looks like for her now. Because as we know, podcasting is a lot of work. So how does her curiosity and drive to build community work for her podcast today?

This is episode number 97 on the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice.

>

MARY: Chidinma, thank you so much for joining me on the show, because when I saw the title of your show, But What Do I Know? I say that to myself all the time. It's like, but what do I know? What do I know? And I just really connected with you on that. And then the fact that we're both Canadian, like you, a lot of Canadian shows don't get highlighted as Canadian. So I'm really, really glad that you agreed to come on and chat with me today.

CHIDINMA: Yes, no, thank you so much for having me, Mary. I really do appreciate it. And yes, But What Do I Know?, is the story of my life and the story of the phase of life that I'm currently in. And when I landed on that name for the podcast, I was like, this is so good.

MARY: Yeah. Cause I mean, when I started my podcast production and consulting company, I had almost 20 years of radio background, but still I was doing the whole. But what do I know? It's podcasting, it's different, it's not radio. What can I do? What can I share? I don't know, I don't know. It's just, I kept saying that, so. Oh, uh, so connected with you over this.

CHIDINMA: Yeah, like it just so represents just all the questioning. I think it's been a really good place for me to like all the questions about any aspect of life. Like my main pillars for the podcast are, you know, like finances, wellness, and relationships of all different types. So whenever, you know, whatever, I'm sort of thinking, I honestly think of my episodes based on that. Like, you know, I'm going through a period of like, questioning my finances. Then I'm like, oh, let's have a conversation about that. But what do I know about how to build up my savings, but what do I know about how to invest more and stuff like that? So, yeah.

MARY: Oh yeah. So walk me through that process. You're like, okay, I'm having this trouble or challenge in my life.

CHIDINMA: Yeah.

MARY: What does that look like in terms of then building out a podcast episode and like figuring out who a guest to bring on and all of that? Walk me through the whole process.

CHIDINMA: So it's really like curiosity driven, I guess, and what I usually do and now it's become, I guess a well oiled machine, if I do say so myself. And so what I'll do is at the beginning of every season, so in January. My seasons typically run from March to December. Now I have an editor on the team, so thankfully I won't have to take that two month break. We can cut it down to one month. But what I do is in January I will, you know, just sit, kind of reflect, journal a bit and think of the different topics that I want to cover for that season.

So, you know, and again, it's related to whatever I'm going through. It's related to life. It's related to something maybe my girlfriends are asking me about. Like right now, I had a little bit of like a pre-launch event with a couple of women and the common themes were hair. Especially for black women, it's hair and hair extensions, braid in hair. Can you get someone to talk about that? And I was like, okay, cool. Questions have been like hair care or balancing or how to build a sustainable creative business. Like, stuff like that are comments that I get. And of course people love conversations around relationships. Whether it's relationships, your family or, you know, dating is always going to pull people's attention.

So when I kind of brainstorm them, I also have sort of like, an admin coordinator slash social media coordinator as well. She helped me sort of brainstorm some ideas and helps me manage socials right now as well. So the team is growing, but yeah, so we'll make a list of topics and then we'll start searching up guests through either Google or socials are really good, especially TikTok and IG because they help me to get a gauge of the person's personality and character and if they'll be a good fit for the podcast. And so, you know, we'll search, we'll kind of do some tags. We'll search by like, if we're looking for, let's say like a business coach, we'll type in like, business coach. And my podcast is for women of colour primarily, so I'll type in, you know, business coach WOC, and IG is pretty great with all the tags and filters. I'll end up finding somebody that fits the profile.

And then once we find someone, it's now a matter of reaching out, pitching someone, sending that email that includes, you know, the stats for the podcast and generally what we're about. And then it's a couple of back and forths with the gap with the potential guest before we then lock in a date. And then closer to our recording day, I'll send instructions, important instructions, like, you need a wired headset, I'm not doing the Bluetooth…

MARY: Oh, gosh no.

CHIDINMA: …anymore. Please don't show up, like, no, no, no, that's not acceptable. You know, like conversations, topics, things like that I used to do and I still do sometimes, like a pretty call before we record just to get to meet the guest and warm up a little bit. But sometimes if you're a repeat guest or if I kind of have a sense of who you are or you have a podcast yourself, we can kind of skip that phase. And then, yeah, and then we get to the time we record and then once we record, it's now on that post production end and market end. But yeah, that's, that's the process.

MARY: You were saying that, you know, the team's growing. You have some people working with you too.

CHIDINMA: Yeah.

MARY: But I'm sure like, like most people when they start this podcast like you started in 2020…

CHIDINMA: Mhmm, yeah.

MARY: …it was one woman show is my guess.

CHIDINMA: Yeah, it was a. It was a one woman show. I had another person, she was a good friend of mine, went to school together. She's a great graphic designer. And so, we went to school for like, urban planning, urban design together. So she really tapped into her design for me. Okay. Yeah, she designed like, the initial iteration of the logo and she was also, she also created the COVID art. She wasn't a photographer, but she was at my rebrand photo shoot for cover of the podcast right now, cover art…

MARY: Nice.

CHIDINMA: …Yeah. So Haley is her name. She has been with me through like day one. But in terms of producing the podcast, it was just me. So I was doing the research, I was reaching out to guests, I was recording, I was producing, I was cutting reels, I was posting. And initially I chose podcasting because it's audio. Like a podcast is an audio format. But now, you know, people want to introduce video, people want to call video shows podcasts.

MARY: Yes.

CHIDINMA: They're not. Okay, let's just get that clear.

MARY: It's a video show.

CHIDINMA: It's a video show. But I understand that y' all want me to do videos so you can push my content. I get that, but I am not, I'm not the biggest fan of that. Like, I chose podcasting for a reason, because I didn't want to feel pressured about, you know, your image on camera and looking good all the time and presenting and performing in a certain way. It has definitely made it a little bit harder, but I'm grateful because now I can tap into an audience on YouTube right, as we start to grow that way. But yeah, yeah, it's definitely come a long way. Yeah.

MARY: So why the rebrand, though? I know there was rebrand in the middle there.

CHIDINMA: Yeah.

MARY: What was that deciding factor to make that happen?

CHIDINMA: Mhm. The rebrand was in the beginning of 2024, last year. Yes. So the rebrand was because the initial cover art was not a cartoon, but it was like an animated cover art. Like it didn't have my face. Yeah, it was to represent me, but it didn't have my face. And I felt like, you know what, I've done this for three years. I'm on video now. I'm showing my face, I'm confident, and I wanted something that was a little bit more bold, more like fierce on the cover. And so I feel like the current cover really represents that. And I just look fire…

MARY: Yeah, it looks great.

CHIDINMA: …Right? But I felt like, yeah, I think it took time for me to kind of get, like, step into that. And so last year was the perfect time to kind of rebrand. I also wanted people to see the cover and see who they would be listening to. And so, yeah, yeah, that was sort of the cause for that.

MARY: Did you change anything about the show instead of just the cover?

CHIDINMA: What I did. I think when I did that subconsciously and maybe a little bit consciously, I think I started to become more personal. When you start a podcast and depending on who you are, for me, this. This was the case. I felt like I had to put on, like, a professional voice, quote, unquote.

MARY: Yeah.

CHIDINMA: And I didn't because I didn't want to fall into the trap of having a podcast where it was, quote, unquote, just two friends chatting-ish. Or just chilling. And I was like, I'm not like, you know, I feel like people don't take those podcasts seriously. So to combat that, I felt like I had to, you know, maybe like, sound uber professional or like, sound like I was like, I did like, research for certain topics and stuff. I still do, but it's just a lot more, like, personable now. Like, my personality is really showing through. I'm not afraid to, like, cuss here and there because it's, you're getting me, you're getting the full person, you're getting my stories now you're getting more of me, right?

So I think that is what I would say, especially 20, like, ending of 2023, 2024, you really start to see that, like, 2022, 2023, you got bits. But towards the end of 2023 and 2024, it was like, yes. And even more so this year, this year, just by virtue of where I'm at in life, the things that myself and my girlfriends are dealing with, a lot of our conversations are being more vulnerable. Like, we're talking about friendship breakups, where I was the one that made a mistake. We're talking about, you know, relationships and having to end them. We're talking about me, you know, losing my job due to the market. And we're combating and tackling those things, right?

I like it because then the audience gets to connect with not just the material, but with me, but still in a healthy way, because I'm never going to get on the mic and say, this is what I did, you should do it, too. This is for information. This is storytelling and a little bit of entertainment too, right? But I think that podcasting is a healthy medium to where people trust the voice, because I've been doing this for so long and I've been doing it based on research and having experts and reputable like girlfriends come on and we talk about it and we're doing it earnestly, we're not doing it maliciously. Like I'm never going to get on the mic and start chatting, ish. And not citing sources and stuff, right? So, yeah, I think that that's, that's been really, really something that I have focused on, you know?

MARY: Mhm. I can hear it too in like the different segments that you have.

CHIDINMA: Yes.

MARY: And how you are.

CHIDINMA: Yeah.

MARY: And in your most recent episode you talk about getting, losing your job and that's very personal. But you walked around that to be like, hey, let's talk about this when I'm ready to do it. You know, it is your show, so I feel like there is a lot of community that you've built. But describe to me when your podcast really became like a community for you and had an impact for you. What does that mean?

CHIDINMA: I think 2024 as well. I think when I did the rebrand, I pushed myself to do a pre-launch for that season and I invited about 10 women listeners, some of them were also podcasters themselves. And we did a pre-launch party where we watched 15 minutes of an episode that was to come and I revealed the cover art. So people, so they got to see the cover art before anybody else. And we just like, talked about what the podcast season was gonna look like. That was step one.

And then I think as much as social media has made it a little bit harder now in terms of reach and engagement, just showing up regularly, people are consistently seeing like, oh, she's serious about this. And people are, you know, commenting, sharing and they're also encouraging me. And I honestly think we might need to have this conversation again next year [LAUGHTER] because I think this year is when I'm really pushing myself to solidify the community aspect. So like, we have an upcoming movie, screening for Black Canadian film, yeah, Village Keeper. And I can actually share this if that's okay with you. Yeah, it's on May 29th in the evening and I'm sharing all about it on socials. So you can catch that there. Or if you listen to the most recent episodes of the podcast, the link is in the episode description.

But yeah, we're, we're screening that and it's virtual. And so now I'm kind of testing myself to say, okay, who feels connected to this? The conversations that we're having on the podcast, who is, who wants to show up because of podcasting, it's very passive. So it's one thing to have people listen to you and enjoy the conversation. It's another thing to have people start coming to events or to want to pay for content, or to leave their house and show up for in person events, right?

So now I'm really seeing it. Like, one of the first things was I thought I could make a discord for our community. And I made a discord, actually. And then like a couple of people joined and then it was like I was hearing from a lot of women that like, you know what, I actually don't want to make a discord. I don't want to join a discord. It's another app.

MARY: Yeah.

CHIDINMA: Some people are like, I'm married, I have too many apps. And I was like, okay, I hear it. So you know what it seems like for my community newsletters would be good. So now I'm working on newsletters. So you're going to get a newsletter monthly about episodes and any events coming up. And then we're just going to keep using IG, like Instagram and have the IG community function and then get give out notifications there. And I've made that group really, really small and I'm inviting certain accounts that I know engage with the podcast.

So those are things that I'm trying. I'm also noticing that, like, I have to say things multiple times on the podcast…

MARY: Oh yes.

CHIDINMA: …for people to take action. Like, that's just. It is what it is on Instagram, because I've been showing up so much, even though reach is reduced, people will still kind of, you know, complete a survey or poll. So that has also been helpful too in terms of like, getting surveys about what the community wants. Like, people are saying that they want events, people want community events, virtual, they want to feel like they're connected with other listeners.

So people do want these things. I just think that with podcasts and it is a little harder because it's a passive medium. It's not like YouTube where while you're watching it, you're typing your comments and you're going back and forth. Like, it's very much like, I don't see the account that's listening to this, especially if it's Apple podcasts. Like, I just see that someone is listening, so yeah.

MARY: Mhmm, and I think that's a lot of the challenge that podcasters have is that like you said, it is passive. It feels like a one way street conversation where you're just talking behind the mic and then you gotta wait a while before you hear back from the community.

CHIDINMA: Exactly.

MARY: And also, like you said, you just have to repeat yourself a lot. And that is part of the audio medium. When I worked on radio, we were always told the best audio has to be repeated seven times in order for someone to get that into their brain. And even then, so because of that repetition, they might not need something right away, but because it's in their brain when, when they do need it, in that moment, they'll think of you and they'll think of what you've said so far and really want to work with you.

And so I think that's why a lot of people that start a podcast and they use it for a marketing purpose, right? Because they have a weekly show or bi-weekly show or whatever, you're in people's brains, you're in people's minds and hearts and ears. And so when they think of, oh, I need this, I'm going to work with the podcaster that I've been listening to the whole time. But, you were saying to me too that you also monetize your podcast,...

CHIDINMA: Yeah.

MARY: …so you do make money, which is different from just using it as a marketing piece for your brand. So walk me through that and what does that look like for you in terms of what does success look like for you?

CHIDINMA: Okay, so in terms of, I guess building the brand, I personally didn't care for building a personal brand because, right now I still have, you know, a work life outside of the podcast. And I didn't see myself, I still don't necessarily see myself and the things that I do as a brand. And I, I'm not interested in developing like, a personal influencer type of brand on socials.

MARY: Right.

CHIDINMA: I am more so interested in building my platform and you can kind of know me through the podcast. That's what I'm more so interested in, right. So that's that. So with that, in terms of then monetizing that podcast monetization is so different from m other, I guess more visual influencer work because depending on what brand you're working with, you're not necessarily coming on Instagram to show like you're not doing like, a get ready with me with this makeup brand. You're reading an ad on the podcast. And so, what has worked or is working for me is working with agencies, are working with the network to connect me with brands. A lot of them are American and they're bigger because they have marketing budgets. And they're not the like beauty brands that people, some of them are, but they're not the beauty brands that, you know, you see on Instagram. But they're lifestyle brands. They'll be like your Cozy Earth. Of course everyone is who has ever listened to a podcast has probably heard of like, Better Help and there's like Squarespace and EarnIn who I work with. Cozy Earth I've worked with.

So I look out for brands that are like lifestyle, wellness, functionality, like finance, sort of like education or finance, um, help apps, like, you know, apps where it can keep you on track with your finances, stuff like that. Those are the brands and companies I find have the budget that can pay for multiple episodes. Like, I don't want to work with a brand if you're going to ask me to read an ad for one episode. That makes no sense to me.

MARY: Yeah, like we said, we need that repetition.

CHIDINMA: Exactly. It needs to be at least three and, or honestly five if we're being honest. And so, yeah, so that's working. I think right now a lot of my like, brand partnerships or ad campaigns are like three figures. I just landed a four figure one, like a good four figure one which I'm like, ooh, from one brand? Great, let's, let's get the ball rolling, right? And then on top of that, what also works is if you host your podcast on platforms like Red Circle, Acast, Megaphone, they will drop ads into your podcast and you go in and you can kind of like set certain like, ad locations on your podcast. And so because I host my podcast, a Megaphone on our network, Spotify will just drop ads there based on my ad location. And so far my average for that has been like 300, 300 to 400 a month. Which is not bad, right?

MARY: That is not bad.

CHIDINMA: Yeah. So with that plus like the brand stuff here and there, that's like, I'm doing okay. But again, podcasting, I mean influencing in general and content creation, it does take time to be able to work a brand. Like, it really is relationship building. Like the four figure deal I said I just landed, it was because I worked with that brand last year and they only sponsored three episodes. But this year they want to do it from like, may to like, almost the end of the year. So you know, like, it, it obviously results in a, in a higher amount. But yeah, it's a lot of relationship building. It's a lot of touch points, a lot of emails, and unfortunately, from my experience, right, because again, I work with agencies in the U.S. that connect me to some of these brands, like through my network.

But on the local level, I have tried and I even, like, paid someone who, who was just part time with me. She was helping me, like, do, like, brand outreach. I have found that Canadian brands just don't seem to have money or they don't seem to understand how podcasting can be important for their marketing strategy. So a lot of times you're setting meetings up and it's like, hey, I had one with this beauty brand and we're actually going to do a collaboration together, so I'm not going to say what it is.

MARY: Yeah

CHIDINMA: And they're great, but they're a B corp, so they don't have a lot of money to put towards marketing right now. And then I had another brand, and even without saying if they had money or not, it was like, hey, we can give your listeners, like a free trial. And I was like, I'm looking for money. But yeah, I don't know, it just seems like Canadian brands so far are just more conservative in spending and that, that is in our nature. Like, if you compare U.S. and Canada, like us, you know, people are consumers, but they are also very entrepreneurial in spirit. So people are not, I feel like people are a little bit bolder in their spending, especially when it comes to things like ads, content. People do it because they see that that is business, that that is work, right?

And they spend the money because they make the money through, you know, entrepreneurial things or their own business. And they're just more advantageous when it comes to business content entrepreneurship in the States versus here. We are very, we hold our hands a little bit tighter because we don't see a lot of opportunities. So we're, we're reserved in how we spend. And so I don't blame the brands for being conservative with how they spend in terms of marketing. I just wish that, you know, they would take the risk to just be like, okay, if I give you like, $500 to $1K sponsor three, four episodes. Let's see what, let's see what you do. You know, but we'll see.

MARY: Yeah, that's, the Canadian market has always been a tougher market to crack in, even in the broadcast world. You know, it's a totally different market. And Canadians are, we're slower to learn about and use podcasting as a listener. So, yeah, we're, we're slowly seeing us spend a little bit more just because there was more awareness, but because we started so low, that spend amount is still going to be so much lower than the U.S.

CHIDINMA: Exactly. Yeah. Another thing to keep in mind is the CPM, which is like the cost per mile, but it really is just like the cost of brand. It's paying you per thousand listens on that particular episode or on your podcast overall, I think the industry standard right now was like 25. So some companies, I think it's like 20 to 20, oh, I don't want to lie to your listeners, [LAUGHTER] but I've seen 25. I've, I've worked with 28, I've worked with 21. And my lesson that I'm learning is if I'm working with an agency and they have to take a cut.

MARY: Yep.

CHIDINMA: I'm doing my best to negotiate for at least 25 per thousand. It gets harder because then if you're a podcaster and you're not making like, you're not getting 10,000 downloads a month, like, that math will just feel really discouraging…

MARY: Yeah.

CHIDINMA: …like 25 for every thousand. So if you, only if you get 5,000 a month, then you're getting, you know, 25 times five. What is that, like a hundred and something a month? So it could feel a little bit discouraging, but if you have like, 40,000 downloads a month or like, 30,000, which is where I'm at, then it's a bit more a month, you know?

MARY: Yeah, exactly. And I think that's where a lot of listeners worry about the monetizing bit, right? Because you do need those numbers to back it up. And for even agencies to even want to start working with you is to have the numbers. But it's not all about the numbers, right? For you, it's also about building that community aspect. So how do you then refocus on the community stuff? So it's not always going to be about finances and money, money, money.

CHIDINMA: Exactly. And I think so, honestly, the most realistic and honest answer that I can give for that is, it takes money to run this thing. So as much as I love the community aspect, I still need to be able to sustain this. But what I'm trying my best to do is to not rely on my community for the money. Like, I do want to start a Patreon, but again, people are just coming around to the concept of paying for content, so it'll be hard. I think, like that's, that's, that's another leap.

And so I think for me I'm really pushing to get my money for the podcast and my media work from companies and brands and sponsors so that the listeners and my community can, you know, either attend events for free, listen to content for free, and then in person events or some virtual offerings will be like an affordable rate. And maybe in a year I'll change my mind because, you know, the business strategy has changed. But I'm trying to not depend on my community for money. I just feel like that that’s harder, you know, so.

MARY: Especially when your community is also talking about finances and struggling.

CHIDINMA: Exactly.

MARY: You know, losing their jobs and all this stuff too. Yeah, yeah. So, especially when you started out, you know, let's look back, reflect, what has really surprised you with the podcast?

CHIDINMA: Oh, that's a good question. I feel like hmm. I feel like my growth to a certain extent has surprised me. I think when I first started, I really worried that people weren't going to want to listen because it's not a pop culture podcast. And even though, like,I basically do, like, edutainment, like, I'm educating you, but I'm also, like, entertaining you, right? And I was worried that we weren't going to, like, it wasn't going to seem like it was fun enough that people could listen to for an hour. But I was, you know, greatly, I was, I was wrong and I'm so happy I was wrong. And so I think the growth really surprised me, but I think the amount of work surprised me and the amount of work continues to surprise me. [LAUGHTER] Like, it doesn't surprise me now, but it just continues to increase, especially with each level that you get to. To where I'm like, damn, like, in 2020, I really just thought like, record, do a little bit of editing, put it out, record, do a little bit of editing, put it out. And that, that was okay for like 20, for people who started way back or 2011, 2012, that was fine because it wasn't that, like, saturated or wasn't, there weren't that many people starting podcasts back then, even up until, I want to say, 2018, 2019. But from 2019, when Spotify started telling everybody,...

MARY: Yeah.

CHIDINMA: …hey, you get a bag and you get a bag, exclusive deal for you, that's when people were like, oh, I want to start a podcast too. And then every, like, it just like, it was like, the amount of work that it took to separate yourself increased. Now you needed video, now you needed Instagram pages and TikTok pages for sure. Now you might need a website for SEO. Now you need a team. You need someone to help you on, send out emails to guests. You need someone to help you with socials. You need a graphic designer. You need someone to help you on Canva. Like, yeah, the amount of work, woo.

MARY: Yeah, I know. I loved, like, in the beginning when I saw, like, all the celebrity podcasts come in, and at first I was like, oh, man, you just, do we need another celebrity podcast? And but, then I was like, but wait, they're growing the industry. The industry itself is being well known. You know, and then I, then you'd see shows actually center around podcasting. And now. But then it's like, oh, every mother and their dog now has a podcast. And it, like you said, does saturate the market. But I loved seeing how the industry has grown and has been accepted as, like, the norm.

CHIDINMA: Yes.

MARY: And even today, I read a headline like, the Golden Globes is going to now give out a podcast award.

CHIDINMA: Wow. Because I know, like, there's the Podcast Academy already. Like, there's the Podcast Academy, which is like, I guess, like the podcast equivalent of Grammys. So they give out podcast awards.

MARY: Yeah.

CHIDINMA: And then, of course, you have the Signal Awards, which we won one. Thank god. There's so many different awards for podcasting that don't just have to be like, podcasting award. Like, we also want to communicate our award last year in 2024.

MARY: Oh sweet.

CHIDINMA: And I was like, okay, because you're communicating on the mic. I was like, this is, wow, wild. That's nothing. That shocked me, like, the awards, right? And so my next one that I am looking out for is, like, maybe the Webbies when we grow a bit more. And the Podcast Academy one. I definitely have my eye on those. But yeah, like, I'm so grateful that people are seeing podcasting as work. And it takes a team.

MARY: Yes. Exactly.

CHIDINMA: You know, and so that's why, unfortunately, sometimes you see bigger networks and companies betting on people that already have a name so that they can bring an audience.

MARY: Exactly. And that's why there are so many celebrity podcasts. [LAUGHTER]

CHIDINMA: Exactly.

MARY: So aside from the awards and that stuff that we had just talked about, what else are you really excited about podcasting right now?

CHIDINMA: Oh, honestly. So on, like a micro level, I'm honestly excited to just put out my next episode. I feel like the next one is really, really great. We get deeper into, like, my, you know, current life update with work and everything. So in this space that I am, I'm getting re-excited about, like, the episodes, and recording, and putting them out and just people hearing them like, that is really exciting to me.

I also think last year I was more like head down and my 9 to 5 was really busy, so I didn't really get to go out. But this year I would like to see if I could attend more, like, in person podcasting events. Like, I'm excited to meet other podcasts. I recently have attended a couple of networking events here in Toronto that I've related to podcasting, like, the Podcast Summit. And there was another sort of, like, more exclusive one, but I'm hoping to get out to, like, the Podcast Movements and the big ones. Um, maybe one. I know there's one in August. Hopefully I can get out to that one. We'll see. But yeah.

MARY: But yeah, nice. Yeah, I love that you were saying the micro. Because at the core of podcasting really is recording those episodes, right? They are just talking and then, yeah, in the broader sense of meeting other podcasters. And I have the same buzzy feeling too. Like, I just want to get out and see people again. And I'm thinking about checking out Pod Summit YYC in Calgary this year. It's in September. And yeah, seeing that the Canadian aspect of the industry growing as well. And so that's not all focused on the U.S. and always going to the States for podcast movement and evolutions and all that stuff, which is great, but also seeing the Canadian side grow. So maybe I'll catch you in person at one of these events one day.

CHIDINMA: Yes, fingers crossed. I hope we do.

MARY: So on that, thank you so much, Chidinma, for joining me. This has been such a fun conversation, getting into the insights of your show, and I could ask you about a whole bunch of other things that I'm like, oh, I need to know more about this and that, but another time.

CHIDINMA: Yes, for sure, for sure. Let me know. I'm definitely open to having more conversations about this. I feel like it's so helpful for, you know, upcoming podcasters, current podcasters, even just listeners, to know, you know, how they can support the podcast that they listen to, right? So thank you so much for having me on. This was so great, Mary. I do really, really appreciate it.

[MUSIC IN]

MARY: What I'm really struck by, Chidinma, is that evolution, not just for the podcast itself, you know, the rebrand and everything, but the evolution of herself, her confidence, yet still staying humble to always asking, yeah, but what do I know? I appreciate that she reminds me that we're always learning, no matter where we are on this podcasting journey. We learn from each other. We learn from the process of just doing. And from the product itself, the podcast, there will always be turning points in life and it's using that curiosity to figure out what the next steps can be. And that she's willing to try and experiment.

Sometimes after you produce a show for so many seasons, it's easy to just like, sit back and keep doing the thing that you always do, right? It's like, oh, I've done this before. This is easy. I'll just do steps A, B and C, podcast is done. But I love that Chidinma is always looking to learn and grow alongside her podcast with her listeners. So whether you're just starting your podcast or you're looking to grow and monetize like she did, but when it comes down to it, the podcast really is about your listeners.

So it's what she's doing on her show for and with her community. And like I said on the episode, and I've said many times on this podcast, it's not about you. It's not about you as the host, or it's not about you if you're a guest. It is about the listener. And for Chidinma, it's her community and being curious to find the next topic or theme to help her community grow, not only in, like, growing her community numbers in that sense, but to grow in each listener's own learning journey. So thank you again to Chidinma for being here and sharing her podcasting journey. And especially learning. I get to learn from someone who's brought success on her own terms.

So in the next episode, let's continue this idea of curiosity. I'm going to ask the question, how does curiosity play a significant role in your podcast, especially for interviews? I started thinking about this because I had a conversation with my daughter. And like I've always said before too, a lot of my work is intertwined, right? It's not just about podcasting, but it's life and how does that work with the podcast and family and everything is just connected. And this is part of the show prep stuff that I always learn from radio. Things you do on the day to day can be brought to life on the podcast. And so I want to bring this idea that my daughter and I had about asking questions to bring out stories that you want to hear, to be a stronger storyteller, and to have really in-depth conversations. So when you become curious, your conversations have the potential to be really, really juicy. So I'll catch you next time on the show.

[MUSIC ENDS]

>

MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you’d share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

>

[MUSIC ENDS]

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99 episodes

#Business #Self-Improvement #Mary Chan #Podcasting #Authentic #Ownyourvoice #Voice #Voicecoach #Voicedirecting #Organized Sound Productions #Marketing #Podcasting Education #Canada #Nature #Speak

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