#12 Not Just a Method, But a Relationship: Systems Thinking in Place with Penny Hagen and Angie Tangaere

The Systems Sandbox

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What does it take to change systems — not just tweak them? In this powerful episode, Angie Tangaere and Penny Hagen from the Auckland Co-Design Lab share what it means to lead transformative, indigenous-led systems change rooted in place, relationships, and real-world learning. From rethinking how government works with communities, to why personal healing matters in policy reform, this is a conversation that blends the deeply practical with the radically human. If you care about equity, complexity, or creating meaningful change that lasts — this one’s for you.

If you're interested in learning more, here's some links to references made in the episode:

• The Auckland Co-Design Lab (https://www.aucklandco-lab.nz) and The Southern Initiative (https://www.tsi.nz/)
• Human Learning Systems (https://www.humanlearning.systems/)
• Healing Systems for Change (https://ssir.org/articles/entry/healing-trauma-systems)

Throughout the episode you may hear references to terms or parts of Aotearoa New Zealand's history and culture. You're welcome to use the below links to learn a bit more about these to help you get the most out of the episode.

• Hear some terms that you're not familiar with? Start here:
  https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/maori-language-week/100-maori-words
• Te Tiriti o Waitangi (The Treaty of Waitangi) is a foundational document for Aotearoa New Zealand (https://nzhistory.govt.nz/politics/treaty/the-treaty-in-brief)

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Chapters

1. #12 Not Just a Method, But a Relationship: Systems Thinking in Place with Penny Hagen and Angie Tangaere (00:00:00)

2. #1 Introductions (00:01:00)

3. #2 Ways of working together at the Co-Design Lab (00:09:55)

4. #3 Understanding our positionality (00:22:50)

5. #4 Grappling with power in systems conversations (00:33:27)

6. #5 What's the minimum requirements for working in place? (00:44:29)

7. #6 Analogies for working with systems (00:54:30)

8. #7 Curiosity (01:05:00)