Episode 16: Zhuangzi on Uselessness

This Is The Way: Chinese Philosophy Podcast

In this episode, we talk about the theme of uselessness in the Zhuangzi, one of the great foundational texts of philosophical Daoism. What exactly determines whether something is useful or useless? Is usefulness largely or fundamentally a matter of perspective? Does the text's apparent recommendation that we be "useless" (in some sense) entail some sort of realism or objectivism about value? We explore these themes together with our guest, Chris Fraser, a major scholar of the Zhuangzi.
Many thanks to The Hong Kong Ethics Lab for sponsoring this podcast series.
Want to continue the discussion? Need links to some of the sources mentioned? Go to the support page for this episode on Warp, Weft, and Way.
We thank Lena Li (LI La 李拉 ) for her expert editing and sound engineering. We also thank the blog Warp, Weft & Way for hosting the discussion for this episode.
Guest:
Chris Fraser's website
Chris Fraser's translation of the Zhuangzi
Chris Fraser's book about the Zhuangzi

Co-hosts:
Richard Kim's website
Justin Tiwald's website

Chapters

1. Part I -- Introduction (00:00:00)

2. • Preface to today's topic and guest (00:08:15)

3. Part II -- Zhuangzi on uselessness (00:09:25)

4. • Introducing Chris Fraser (00:09:27)

5. • The "useless tree" passage (00:12:47)

6. • The pliability of use and usefulness (00:18:41)

7. • Uselessness, largeness, and "use" (or lack thereof) of Zhuangzi's words (00:23:19)

8. • The "goose that doesn't honk" passage (00:29:48)

9. • Against fixed standards (how following the dao goes beyond skill) (00:34:33)

10. • Is staying alive a special value in some sense (for Zhuangzi)? (00:43:34)

11. • Is Zhuangzi's advice too lacking in substance? (00:47:42)

12. • Does the Zhuangzi implicitly appeal to objective values? (00:59:20)

13. • How the Zhuangzi handles people who reject the ethic of "following dao well" (01:04:16)

14. • Some worries about the normative basis for Daoist harmony (01:10:14)

15. • Closing question for our guest (01:16:28)