Trust But Verify?

Tough Things First

Is it true that you should trust but verify? In this Tough Things first podcast, Ray Zinn if you have to verify, there’s no trust involved. (Watch Video Podcast)

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Ray Zinn: Hey, Rob. Good to be with you today.

Rob Artigo: Good to be back. Well, this is a special edition of The Tough Things First Podcast. It is a video podcast. If you want to watch the video, you can go to the website, toughthingsfirst.com, find this podcast, and then click on the link that takes you to Ray’s YouTube channel. And then click on that and you’ll be in the know, like so many others in Silicon Valley listening and watching this particular podcast.

Ray, recently you wrote about the phrase trust but verify. This is made famous by Ronald Reagan. It’s also a Russian proverb, but that’s where it comes from originally. But you say it’s a mistake to go by this saying because you describe it as blind trust. Tell me about that.

Ray Zinn: Well, it’s an oxymoron. If you trust somebody, you don’t have to verify. That’s the whole concept of trust. Trust is intrinsic in and of itself. That means you have confidence. You believe honestly that the person that you’re giving that trust to is going to fulfill their responsibility completely. Like a friend; a friend is one that you can trust, and that doesn’t say that you need to verify it. It just sounds to me like it was an oxymoron when I heard that phrase. I heard a lot on the news especially as it relates to Iran on the nuclear program that they’re doing, I kept hearing, “Okay, trust but verify.” If you have to verify something, that’s really not being trustworthy. If you are married to someone and you don’t feel you can trust them, then of course you’re going to be checking to verify if they’re in fact doing what they’re supposed to do as a spouse, or a friend.

I just thought it was kind of an oxymoron, and I looked up several versions of the definition of the word trust, and they all say the same thing, that you have confidence, they’re reliable, and they don’t need a validation or verification. So that’s what I thought was just kind of an interesting saying. You said it comes from a Russian saying or some other?

Rob Artigo: A proverb. Yeah, Russian proverb.

Ray Zinn: A proverb, right. Anyway, it just seemed to me to be an oxymoron. With my friends, I don’t have to verify. If you’re at work, if you have a time clock and you have to log in when you come into work, there’s no trust there. You’re just verifying. You’re validating vis-a-vis the time clock that you in fact logged in. In fact, companies that have these login devices to make sure that people are checking in at the appropriate time, they’re not trusting their employees, if you can understand what I’m saying.

Rob Artigo: Sure, sure. Trust is a invaluable asset in another person when you can trust them. But it’s fragile because it’s easy to mess that trust up, and then you have to get into verifying what they say. Let’s talk about the value of trust in a relationship, whether it’s a working relationship, a family relationship, or whatever. The value of that trust, you can’t put a price tag on real trust.

Ray Zinn: It’s paramount. It’s absolutely paramount. When you have a relationship that’s built on trust, like when I hop on an airplane, I trust that the pilot is going to do a good job. That means that all the appropriate boxes were checked as far as his certifications and so forth. Or if I go to a doctor and have some surgical process, procedure done, I have to trust that he’ll do it correctly.

So how do you verify it? Well, if you’re still alive after the anesthetic wears off, I guess you validated that that person knew what he was doing. If you don’t wake up, obviously then whether you’ve lost that trust or not won’t matter. We have to trust a lot of people. We trust people that we do business with. We trust people that we rely on to work physically, if they’re a doctor or if they’re an airline pilot or if they’re a lawyer or whatever, or a school teacher. It’s endemic. You have to trust. And to verify that the person did in fact perform as advertised, then it’s a little late. If you have to validate that someone did the job properly, it’s a little late, especially if you look at a doctor or an airline pilot or someone that has your life in his hands. That’s the ultimate trust.

And so in the case of Iran and this nuclear program that they have, trusting that they’re going to stop doing high-grade energy or high-grade nuclear power, it’s a little late because now they already have it and now you’re stuck with that issue. It just caught my eye, or caught my hearing I should say, as I was listening to that newscast and they said, “Okay, we’re going to trust that the Iranians are going to do it, but we’re going to verify.” If it’s someone you can’t trust, then obviously you’re going to have to verify or take some other action. So anyway, that’s how it came up with regard to Iran.

Rob Artigo: Do you think, in the case of Iran, that it’s more of a political statement? In other words, I’m saying trust but verify. I’m making an overture of trust, which doesn’t really exist because I am going to verify because I really don’t trust.

Ray Zinn: Exactly. That’s it. That’s the whole purpose of having someone there validating whether or not that they’re abiding by the agreement. There’s no trust there. You’re just going to check and make sure they’re doing what they’re going to be doing. I think it’s an oxymoron kind of a phrase, trust but verify. It doesn’t match the definition of the word trust.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, and I think we’ll wrap it up with this. If you’re working with somebody who believes you have all their trust, but you have somebody who’s checking on their work because you really don’t trust them. And I think an accountant can be; unfortunately, accountants are in a position to mess with your finances in a way that you don’t detect it for a very long time it can happen.

Ray Zinn: [inaudible 00:08:17].

Rob Artigo: I’m not saying accountants are bad, but you know what I’m saying, is that sometimes you need somebody to verify somebody’s work because you want to make sure that they’re doing right by you because you don’t really, you know.

Ray Zinn: Well, it’s like in an airplane. They have the pilot and they have the other co-pilot, and one backs up the other. But that’s not verifying. That’s just safety. It’s like putting on safety glasses; you’re protecting your eyes from being damaged by something. There are duplications, like airplanes having two engines instead of one or two propellers instead of one or whatever, or two batteries instead of one. There’s always backup, but that’s not verification. That’s just a safety of just having multiple ways to protect yourself. So that’s different than trust but verify.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, it’s just prudent to have some redundant systems-

Ray Zinn: Exactly.

Rob Artigo: … to protect yourself. Sometimes it’s just logical sense and then nobody’s offended by that because they know that that’s just the way it works.

Ray Zinn: On this program called American Greed, it’s a reality show or something. Anyway, not reality. It’s a re, what do we want to call it?

Rob Artigo: They do reenactments.

Ray Zinn: Right, reenactments. And what people do is when you invest in a particular company, you’re putting that trust that they’re going to do what they’re supposed to do. On American Greed, it’s all about people that you trusted that screwed you, that took your money and did you in, as you would. And that’s the problem as we were talking about with Iran and the nuclear program, is that we say, “Well, okay, you’re going to shut down your centrifuges, but we’re going to have somebody come by and check.” They can agree to shut down their centrifuges, but we’re going to verify if they did or not. That’s not trust though. That’s the whole purpose of this podcast. That’s not being trustworthy.

Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, the listeners can join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions, your comments are always welcome at Tough Things First. Also, follow Ray on X and Facebook and LinkedIn. And of course, pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First. And as you know, the Zen of Zinn Series 1, 2, and 3. And on sale now, The Essential Leader: 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make Up the Essential Leader. Thanks, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.