The Habits Needed for Virtue: A Conversation with Dr. Tim Pawl

What Matters Most

This is not as late as the last episode, only a day behind this time, but this might be the new normal until the conference is over. Nevertheless, it is worth the wait as Tim and I talk about the stable disposition necessary to create the habits needed to create virtue.

This is episode fifteen of season three with Dr. Tim Pawl, Professor of Philosophy at the University of St. Thomas in St. Paul, Minnesota. Tim received his MA and PhD from Saint Louis University and his BA in Philosophy and Theology, BA, magna cum laude from Valparaiso University in Philosophy and Theology.

Tim works on metaphysics, philosophical theology, and moral psychology. He says, “In metaphysics I work on truthmaker theory, modality, and free will. In philosophical theology, I have published on transubstantiation, Christology, and divine immutability. In moral psychology I have worked with psychologists on questions concerning how best to grow in virtue, and whether the traditional wisdom of the Christian moral tradition is conducive to growth in virtue.” Tim’s best-known works are linked here and include his books on the Christology of the early church councils, The Incarnation. Cambridge Elements Series. Cambridge University Press (2020); In Defense of Extended Conciliar Christology: A Philosophical Essay. Oxford Studies in Analytic Theology. Oxford University Press, 2019; and In Defense of Conciliar Christology: A Philosophical Essay. Oxford Studies in Analytic Theology. Oxford University Press, 2016.

When Tim and I discussed this podcast, though, Tim was interested in discussing his work on virtue and especially a series of articles on virtue in light of both ancient Christian moral teachings and modern psychology. There were three articles in particular that Tim sent to me on The Psychology of Habit Formation and Christian Moral Widom on Virtue Formation, Christian Moral Wisdom, Character Formation, and Contemporary Psychology, and What is Virtue? The link above will take you to all of these articles.

Tim is a significant philosopher on matters that for many of us, myself included, are complex and technical, especially his work on the early councils and their Christological definitions. What we discussed is also significant and, in many ways, complex too, but there is something about virtue, habit, and personal psychology that is direct and knowable because most of us struggle to live it out our virtues, and wrestle with habits both good and bad. It’s philosophy and psychology that we confront on a regular if not daily basis. How to be good people. Tim mentioned the litany of humility, which I link to here, as a practice that can be of benefit for, indeed, gaining humility.

Tim Pawl is such a careful thinker and I appreciate the care he brought to discussing virtue, virtue formation, and how we can create the habits that allow virtue to flourish both from ancient Christian and contemporary psychological sources.

Virtue formation is always important and I suspect always a struggle in every age and for every, or the vast majority, of people. Most of us desire to do better, to live out what matters most to us, and to seek the good whenever we can. But it’s tough sometimes to do it. What can aid us in this? What can help us?

But if it is a perennial issue, from a Christian perspective a primal struggle with sin, there are conditions that allow human flourishing more than others. In our own age, one of the major issues that creates the near occasion for sin is social media. One of the bedrock elements of the Christian tradition, emerging from the Jewish tradition, is to tell the truth: Proverbs 12:22: “The LORD detests lying lips, but he delights in people who are trustworthy.” Colossians 3:9 says, “Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices.”

We all have to reckon with our own weaknesses. The Rabbis posited that we had a yetzer ha-ra, an evil impulse, and a yetzer ha-tov, a good impulse, something like a light and shadow side. But when disinformation or misinformation have become the mode of communicating it is difficult to determine what is true. Indeed, lies are even in the words. In what way are misinformation disinformation not simply lying?

This is where the ancient Christian tradition and contemporary psychology encourage us to maintain the habit formation that create virtue. We tell the truth. We insist that others tell the truth. We seek the truth and not the lies. We do not promote lies. This is what has troubled me in terms of our shared social world. But virtue is a constant process of growth and it is something that matters not just for individuals but for our shared life in community. Let’s tell the truth. I thank Tim for his conversation and know that there might be other virtues that you are growing in and working on. It’s a worthwhile task. It might not seem it in the craziness of our political climate, but virtue is its own reward.

What Matters Most is produced by the Centre for Christian Engagement at St Mark’s College, the Catholic college at UBC. The CCE is a centre at St. Mark’s College that explores the Christian and Catholic intellectual tradition and seek to learn from others, other Christians, members of other religious traditions, and from those who do not claim any particular or formal religious affiliation. Our goal, then, is to talk to a lot of people, to learn from them, to listen to them, and to find out what motivates them, what gives them hope, what gives them peace, and what allows them to go out into the world to love their neighbors.

And now some news on upcoming podcast episodes:

Coming up next in some order still to be determined are Dr. Fiona Li, the first Archbishop Ireland Chair in catholic studies at St. Mark’s College, and then Dr. Minelle Mahtani of UBC on growing up in Canada with a Muslim and a Hindu parent, and then Dr Paula Fredriksen, one of the great scholars on early Christianity and Judaism, and Dr. Joan taylor, another great scholar of early Christianity and Judaism.

Let us know what you want to discuss next on Pop Culture Matters. Follow us at our Instagram page, @stmarkscce, newly revived, and drop us a line as to what you want to see or hear, or at our new Facebook page Centre for Christian Engagement. Or email us with your suggestions to [email protected] or [email protected].

Some upcoming events:

The Promise of Christian Education: Past, Present and Future, MAY 1-3, 2025, at ST. MARK'S COLLEGE, VANCOUVER, CANADA. You can find all the information on the speakers and the program on the CCE website. Click here to register.

The cost for the whole conference is minimal and the three keynote speakers are free, but you do need to register for Dr. Margaret MacDonald, Dr. Samuel Rocha, and Reverend Dr. Stan Chu Ilo.

Some other upcoming events:

A webinar with Fr. Jim Martin on April 7 at 5 pm PCT. Building Bridges: Reaching Out to Those on the Margins

Is there a place for all people in the Catholic Church? How can everyone feel welcomed and experience God's love in their lives?

Register on Eventbrite now!

Past events:

Father Andrew Laguna S.J.'s annual Jesuit Lecture on Immigration and Ignatian Spiritual Discernment is available on You Tube now.

Dr Ray Aldred's third annual Laudato Si’ lecture, bringing together Indigenous and Christian thought on how to care for creation, is available on You Tube.

Dr. Michael Higgins lecture on The Monk and the Pope is now on You Tube.

A few thanks are in order. To Martin Strong, to Kevin Eng, and to Fang Fang Chandra, the team who helps me bring this podcast to you, but also makes the CCE run so much more smoothly.

I also want to thank our donors to the Centre, whose generosity enables this work to take place at all: Peter Bull, Angus Reid, and Andy Szocs. We are thankful to their commitment to the life of the academic world and of the work of the Church in the world by funding the work of the CCE. I am also thankful to the Cullen family, Mark and Barbara, for their support of the ongoing work of the CCE through financial donations that allow us to bring speakers to the local and international arenas.

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Thanks again for listening and remember what matters most.

Dr. John W. Martens