Gender Bias and Communication in the Workplace: 6 GLASS WALLS with Dr. Amy Diehl (ep. 189)

Talk About Talk - Communication Skills Training

You’ve heard of the glass ceiling, but what about the glass walls? Dr. Andrea Wojnicki speaks with Dr. Amy Diehl, co-author of Glass Walls, about six subtle yet powerful gender bias barriers still limiting women at work. Learn how these biases show up in communication in the workplace and what individuals and leaders can do to recognize and dismantle them.

CONNECT WITH ANDREA

• Website: TalkAboutTalk.com
• LinkedIn – Andrea: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/
• LinkedIn Talk About Talk: https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/
• Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/
• YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube/

CONNECT WITH DR. AMY DIEHL

• Dr. Diehl’s website & speaking engagement enquiries: https://amy-diehl.com
• GLASS WALLS book: https://amy-diehl.com/glass-walls-shattering-the-six-gender-bias-barriers-still-holding-women-back-at-work/
• Gender Bias Scale for Women Leaders: https://amy-diehl.com/gender-bias-scale/

TRANSCRIPTION

“Female hostility. I always get the question. Sometimes people say that the women in the workplace are worse than the men. I don’t know whether that’s true or not, but I will say that when women don’t support other women, it hurts us more. We expect solidarity from our female colleagues.”

That was Dr. Amy Diehl, co-author of the book Glass Walls: Shattering the Six Gender Bias Barriers Still Holding Women Back at Work. In the next 45 minutes, we’re going beyond the glass ceiling and glass cliffs. You’re going to learn what those six glass walls are, how they manifest at work, and what we can do about them. Especially in the context of communication, we’ll explore the power of labeling these barriers and talking about them.

We all witness these glass walls at work. Whether you’re a woman directly affected, an ally observing them, or a leader with the power to influence change, this episode is for you.

Let’s be clear: this isn’t about complaining. This is about using real research to identify, label, and discuss gender bias.

Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. If you’re a returning listener, welcome back. If you’re new, let me introduce myself. I’m Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk. You can learn more about me at talkabouttalk.com. While you’re there, I encourage you to sign up for my email newsletter. Between this podcast and the newsletter, you’ll get valuable communication coaching.

I help leaders improve their communication: presentation skills, executive presence, precision, and personal branding.

All of these skills are hard enough without the additional challenge of gender bias.

Recently I read Glass Walls by Dr. Amy Diehl and Dr. Leanne Dzubinski. From a communication perspective, I saw insights that I knew would resonate with you. So I reached out to Amy, and here we are.

Here’s how these 45 minutes will go: I’ll first introduce Dr. Diehl (Amy) and then we’ll jump into the interview. At the end, I’ll share three key takeaways. Yes, always three; the power of three.

OK, let me introduce Amy.

Amy Diehl, PhD, is an award-winning IT leader and Chief Information Officer at Wilson College in Pennsylvania. She’s also a gender equity researcher and co-author of Glass Walls. Her work has appeared in scholarly journals, Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, and Ms. Magazine. She’s a sought-after speaker, consultant, and expert witness. Her passion is gender equality in society and the workplace. You can find her at amy-diehl.com.

Here we go!

Thank you so much, Amy, for being here to talk about glass walls with me and the Talk About Talk listeners.

Amy Diehl: Thanks so much for having me, Andrea. I’m excited for this conversation.

Andrea Wojnicki: We’ve all heard about the glass ceiling and the glass cliff, but can you define what glass walls are and walk us through the six described in your book?

AD: When my co-author Dr. Leanne Dzubinski and I wrote the book, we didn’t initially have the title. It came together after we finished the manuscript and realized what we were really talking about—barriers in every direction. Not just a ceiling above, but walls all around. Invisible, like glass, you often don’t notice them until you run into them. So the metaphor of glass walls made sense.

These barriers are baked into workplace cultures. Our goal was to name them, make them visible, and start discussions about how to dismantle them.

AW: It’s a perfect metaphor. Can you walk us through the six walls?

AD: Absolutely. The first is male privilege: A dominant workplace culture that includes male gatekeeping, the boys’ club, and even the glass cliff, where women are set up in risky roles and then blamed when things go wrong.

AW: And that first wall, male privilege, forms the foundation for the others, right?

AD: Exactly. The other five barriers build on that base.

AW: Before you go further, I want to encourage listeners to do a mental checklist as they hear about these barriers. Ask yourself: Have I experienced this? Have I observed this?

AD: That’s great advice. For context, we developed a tool, the Gender Bias Scale for Women Leaders, while researching. It identifies the six barriers and is available on my website as a quick self-assessment.

AW: Fantastic. I’ll include that link in the show notes.

AD: The second wall is disproportionate constraints. Women are in the workplace, but with limitations, fewer choices, more scrutiny. From career paths to communication, women face muted voices and are held to unequal standards. Their appearance, tone, and behavior are under constant watch.

The third is insufficient support: lack of mentorship, sponsorship, and access to informal networks. Women are often left out of spaces where decisions are made. One insight from my dissertation: the most confounding barrier for women was unsupportive leadership. Being hired, but not backed when challenges arise, is demoralizing.

AW: That’s especially confusing. “You hired me. Why aren’t you supporting me?”

AD: Exactly. They couldn’t make sense of that.

The fourth wall is devaluation. Women’s contributions are diminished. Salary inequality is one example. Others include being interrupted, called pet names, or not addressed by their professional titles. And there’s office housework (taking on tasks like organizing lunch or cleaning the fridge) without recognition.

AW: Linda Babcock’s work on “non-promotable tasks” comes to mind.

AD: Yes. These tasks are necessary but should be shared. Better yet, hire admin staff to handle them.

AW: Leaders must ensure tasks are equitably distributed.

AD: Right. The fifth glass wall is hostility. Harassment, discrimination, and, yes, female hostility. People often ask whether women in the workplace are worse than men. I don’t know if that’s true, but when women don’t support other women, it hurts more. We expect solidarity from each other. When another woman blocks your opportunity, it feels more shocking.

AW: Can you talk about the queen bee phenomenon and female-only versus mixed-gender dynamics?

AD: Yes, and the sixth and final wall is acquiescence. After repeatedly hitting barriers, women may give up. They stay silent, limit aspirations, or leave entirely. Not because they’re incapable, but because the emotional toll is too high.

AW: So we’re talking to women, allies, and leaders; people who can help create equitable, productive, happy workplaces.

AD: Exactly.

AW: Let’s shift to communication. One strength of your book is the vocabulary. You and Leanne coined many terms to describe these phenomena.

AD: Yes. When we couldn’t find terms in the literature, we created them. For example, role incredulity: assuming a woman isn’t in charge. A director mistaken for an assistant. A physician assumed to be a nurse.

AW: One of my clients is a global CEO, and people often assume she runs just the Canadian division. It’s a classic case.

AD: Yes. It’s often unintentional, but impactful. That moment can change a person’s perception.

Another term is credibility deficit: women’s statements aren’t believed unless confirmed by someone else. My co-author Leanne once had a man turn to her husband to verify what she said, even though she was the expert.

AW: That example stuck with me. What about terms like mansplaining and he-peating?

AD: Mansplaining: Explaining something to a woman in a condescending way. He-peating: A woman’s idea is ignored until a man repeats it and receives credit. If done intentionally, that’s called bro-propriating.

AW: The intent matters. Sometimes it’s unintentional, but still harmful.

AD: Right. One of the biggest issues is interrupting. Men’s voices are privileged. They’re taught it’s acceptable to dominate conversations. If you’re interrupted repeatedly, especially by peers, it undermines your credibility.

AW: I coach women through this all the time. They need strategies, from jokes to private conversations, to enlisting allies.

AD: Yes. Sometimes the most effective approach is pulling someone aside, assuming positive intent, and addressing the pattern.

AW: Let’s talk about a story from a workshop participant. A senior OB-GYN received feedback that she was difficult. She believed female nurses were biased against her.

AD: That’s the status-leveling burden. Women in higher roles often go above and beyond (baking cookies, being extra nice) to gain cooperation from other women. It’s about navigating the contradiction between gender and organizational hierarchies.

AW: Leaders should be aware and provide training so teams understand these dynamics.

AD: Yes. Raising awareness helps people recognize patterns and adjust their behavior.

AW: You mentioned experiencing this personally.

AD: Yes. I had to spend extra time connecting with a secretary who didn’t support me. In the end, what changed things was her retirement. I even sent male colleagues to ask for things because they’d be more successful.

AW: It’s about recognizing the situation and working around it strategically. Let’s talk about flip it to test it.

AD: A simple but powerful tool from sociologist Kristin Pressner. If you say, “Maria is too assertive,” flip it: “Would I say Mario is too assertive?” Probably not. It reveals gender bias in assumptions.

AW: Great for self-checking and for leaders in hiring or evaluations.

AD: Exactly.

AW: What’s your take on Adam Grant’s article about women using “weak” language strategically?

AD: His mistake was calling it weak. It’s not weak, it’s smart. Women are adapting to navigate male-normed environments. Maybe men should adopt these techniques, too.

AW: Like imposter syndrome. Maybe men should question themselves more!

AD: Yes. These strategies make women effective communicators.

AW: Tell us about your next book, Excuses, Excuses.

AD: It explores six myths about why women are never “just right” at work, excuses based on age, appearance, race, etc. The subtitle is The Six Myths Why Women Are Never Quite Right at Work and How We Can Shatter Them. Many of these judgments are contradictory: too quiet, too outspoken, too young, too old. It’s not about the woman. It’s about systemic bias.

AW: Sounds like a powerful follow-up.

AD: We aim to name these issues so they can be addressed.

AW: Let’s end with three rapid-fire questions. Are you an introvert or an extrovert?

AD: Introvert. I think before I speak, and I listen a lot. I believe introverts make great leaders.

AW: What’s your communication pet peeve?

AD: The expectation that women fluff up their emails with pleasantries. It’s time-consuming. With close colleagues, I skip it. But with others, I feel I have to include it so I’m not perceived as cold.

AW: Should men do more of that, too?

AD: Yes. It builds relationships and improves communication for everyone.

AW: Final question. Any books or podcasts you’re recommending?

AD: Yes—Powerfully Likable: A Women’s Guide to Effective Communication by Kate Mason. It offers practical tips without telling women to change who they are. It’s about authentic, effective strategies.

AW: Thank you, Amy. Any final words for listeners?

AD: Gender bias is solvable. It takes all of us working together. And if you’re experiencing bias, remember: it’s not about you. It’s a systemic issue. Don’t take it personally. Strategize and persist.

AW: Thank you, Amy. I learned so much from our conversation.

AD: Thank you for having me.

AW: Most of my guests are doing good in the world, but Amy truly stands out. Her research and advocacy are making workplaces better.

As promised, here are the three takeaways I want to reinforce:

1. Vocabulary: Learn and use terms like glass walls, role incredulity, credibility deficit, housekeeping duties, non-promotable tasks, mansplaining, he-peating, and bro-propriating. Labeling helps make bias real, and solvable.
2. Female hostility: It hurts more when it comes from other women. This isn’t about blaming. It’s about raising awareness and fostering solidarity.
3. Intentionality: Bias is often unintentional, but that doesn’t mean we should ignore it. Consider whether a private or public conversation is appropriate.

Thank you again, Amy. And thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review the podcast. It helps others discover us.

Talk soon!

The post Gender Bias and Communication in the Workplace: 6 GLASS WALLS with Dr. Amy Diehl (ep. 189) appeared first on Talk About Talk.