The Art and Science of Sales Copy that Converts with Vicki Handley

Your Dream Business

In this episode of Your Dream Business Podcast, I interviewed Vicki Handley, an expert in sales copywriting and founder of Quirky Copywriting. This episode dives deep into the art and science of writing compelling sales pages and emails. Vicki shares valuable insights on the differences between general copywriting and sales copy, the psychological foundations of effective sales copy, and the importance of specificity and urgency. We discussed how to identify core problems from symptoms, create compelling promises, and the nuances of evergreen versus launch-based sales strategies. Vicki emphasizes the need for ongoing testing and adjustments to improve sales efficacy. If you're an online business owner looking to boost your sales copy, this episode is packed with actionable strategies and expert advice.

KEY TAKEAWAYS COVERED IN THE PODCAST

• Know the Difference: Understanding the distinction between general copy and sales copy is essential for creating content that converts.

• Psychology Matters: Leveraging psychological principles like urgency and specificity can significantly boost the effectiveness of your sales pages and emails.

• Test and Improve: Continuously testing and refining your copy is key to enhancing sales performance over time.

If you enjoyed this episode then please feel free to go and share it on your social media or head over to Apple podcasts or Spotify and give me a review, I would be so very grateful.

LINKS TO RESOURCES MENTIONED IN TODAY’S EPISODE

Connect with Vicki Handley on LinkedIn, Instagram or Website, Ultimate Structure Connect with Teresa on Website, (Grow, Launch, Sell), Sign up to Teresa's email list, Instagram, LinkedIn, or Facebook

Transcript

Teresa: If you've ever tried to write a sales page or sales emails, you will know that there is a. Real art and science to it. And in today's episode of the podcast, I interview an absolute genius when it comes to writing sales pages. This episode is filled with so much gold and so many amazing light bulb moments that if you have something to sell online and you want to write an email or a sales page. This is not to be missed. Hello and welcome back to another episode of Your Dream Business podcast. I'm diving straight in with today's episode because honestly, when I say this episode is gold. I don't say that lightly. I need to tell you a little bit of a story about today's guest. So today's guest is the lovely Vicki Handley, and she's talking to us all about sales pages and copy for sales pages. Now Vicki is in my world. She joined my Grow launch sale program and we did a visibility challenge. And part of that visibility challenge is that I encourage people to get on podcasts, to put themselves out there to become the expert and. Vicki asked If she could come on my podcast, and I said, yes. [00:02:00] I would love to have that conversation on my podcast. I am so flipping grateful. I did because this conversation. Within the first like five, 10 minutes, I am scribbling notes, after notes, after notes. I have to go back there and re-listen to the whole podcast again because there was so much good stuff that she talked about in terms of what sales copy is and what it isn't and all the different things that you can do. So before we jump into what she covers, let me just take a minute to actually introduce who Vicki is. Vicky is, uh, the head of copier, her agency quirky copywriting. She's a marketer who specializes in sales copy and evergreen sales are her forte with her most popular offer. Actually, name Evergreen helps you sell seamlessly behind the scenes with researched, written, and refined email sequences, removing the need for endless launches. Vicki has worked with hundreds of business owners helping them refine their copy so that they can actually get sales through [00:03:00] it. So this conversation is very much aimed at the fact that sales copy and copy copy is very different. When I say copy, copy, I mean people can write copy for blogs, for social media posts, for things like that. When I'm talking about sales copy, I'm talking about sales pages, sales emails, and in this podcast we talk. All things sales copy. She talks about the fact that sales copy actually isn't that creative. It's very formulaic. It's based on psychology and it's basically trying to give people without doubt absolute certainty whether something is for them or not. She has a great analogy that it's like going into a courtroom. She also talks about. The things that people are missing in sales pages and what some of those things should be and how we need to get really specific and really certain around who it is we're speaking to. She talks about the fact of sometimes we just try and keep it quite broad 'cause we don't wanna put someone off or we don't want to miss someone out. But in doing [00:04:00] that, we actually struggle to sell the thing anyway. She shares a phrase with us that is something she calls twisting the knife, and it sounds really awful, but actually it's really important when you're doing a sales page. Basically as she was going through all of these things that in the first kind of first 10, 15 minutes, I was literally just writing question after question after question after question. Like I said, I have not written this many notes in a long time, and I just had all the questions to ask her. What's the difference between a sales page and sales emails? How do you add that urgency, which she says is so important for a sales page. What's the difference between selling something to, to get someone to buy as opposed to get someone on a call? We talk about so much. If you are selling something online, which I'm assuming you are 'cause you're listening to the podcast, this is gold for you. Also, I want you to do me a favor because this is such an amazing episode. And Vicki works so hard to bring you such a cool episode. I would love you to share this for, [00:05:00] for both me and Vicki. I would love you to share this with a business friend that maybe is selling something online. Share it on your social media. If you have a business following and, get some of this stuff out to people because actually I see people create products and services online and then they don't sell, and it's heartbreaking and so disheartening, and actually so much of what Vicki says today is gonna help you sell those things online. So without further ado, here is the amazing Vicki. Vicki, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. I am excited to talk about our subject because, well, I'm just gonna dive straight in and go. Tell me why sales copy is different to someone writing normal copy. Vicki: Sales copy is very different to normal copy because I think even copywriters fear it because you are. Demonstrating your ROI, it's really easy. It's really easy to see if it's working or not. It's clearly visible and it's clearly tied to, uh, [00:06:00] either a financial figure or the number of call bookings, et cetera, and that people are like generating as a result of your work. I personally see it as a challenge. I like to work out what works and also it's, it's not. Creative sales copy. That might sound a bit weird coming from a copywriter, but it's very formulaic. It's very structured. It's, it's very much based on your ideal client's psychology and persuasion, and ultimately it's spin. It's laying out all those cards on the table, but it's, yeah, I often refer to it as courtroom, like closing arguments in a court. I come from a legal background, so that's why I kind of use that as an, and I'm also a big. Crime series fan. So it's the bit at the end of the trial where all the evidence has been presented, they then step up and they state the most powerful aspects of their case to the jury. Full certainty, no space for doubt. This is how things went down. Advocate for either my client being guilty or innocent. And that's co obviously, by or not by in this case. So it, it's very, very different and it's. It requires a lot of [00:07:00] groundwork to have been done before you get to that point as well. So there's a space for other copy and content and all the rest of, there's all sorts of things aren't there that people need to be putting out there into the world. But this is the final, this is the big guns. Everything's laid out on the table, and this is the thing that actually gets them to act, um, inspires the action in your audience. And if it doesn't do that, it's a fail, I'm afraid. Teresa: I love that. I feel like I could just end it now. Thank you, Vicki. Goodbye. Like You're welcome. Honestly, that was brilliant. That was such a good, strong argument for copy, for sales, copy over copy. And I think I have been in this industry a long time, about 11 years now. Uh, my business for 11 years, I've been in this online space for about eight, nine, and if not a bit more. And, and lots of copywriters don't get sales copy. Like one of the thing about sales copy is we're taking them on a journey, but it's. How is that differing to, I think the reason I bring up the journey thing is I think lots of people, lots of copywriters understand the taking a customer on [00:08:00] a journey, but they're not converting them or they're not being direct enough with the journey. So what, what are they missing or what are people missing where they're like, 'cause it is a journey, but how does it differ? Vicki: So. When I'm writing sales copy, I focus heavily on specifics. Mm-hmm. I think if you're trying to do like a lot of things that I see, I've seen a lot of bad sales pages in my time, and I like to focus really hard on the problem that they're solving, and I think that that's, that's often a missing piece. They talk about the generalities, but they don't talk about the specific problem, the specific pain point, the specific challenge that is. Well, it's, I've never said specific so much, but it's specific to that particular target client. Yeah. So there's, there's the target, the individual, like the one person that you are talking to is the first thing. I think a lot of, um, copywriters and people writing their own copy try to appeal a little bit to everybody so that they've, they like hedging their bets, like someone's gonna respond to this for actually that data that you, you. Gathered in order to write that, um, sales page and the [00:09:00] specifics of the problem and the needs, wants and expectations of that individual is really, really important for kind of creating your case. You also need to, I, I call it twisting the knife. That bit, it's a little bit, focusing a little bit on the, the pain and the challenge that they're experiencing, but then the next part. Is focusing on the opportunities that that brings. That's kind of bringing desire into that forefront. And what you're doing with, with sales copy, whether it's an email sequence, whether it's a sales, um, page, whatever is, you are kind of amplifying that journey and you are really, really focusing in on the specifics so that they feel seen, they feel understood, and they feel called out. as well Because a lot of the times when people convert, it's because they're like, oh my God, that's me. That is literally me. Yeah. And the social proof that you're using later, oh my God, that's me. That's where I am now. And this person is like me. So I can see the progression, I can see how things have changed for them in a short period. And the other thing that's often missing is the why now. Like why should they do something now versus six months time when things are worse? So another thing that I love to [00:10:00] do is to make sure that you call out the cost of inaction. And you're, what, what you're doing with your sales page is, like I said before, is you're bringing out those big guns. You're making sure that all your bases are covered and you are engineering that social proof that you have. 'cause that's another thing, social proof, credibility, signals, why you are the only logical choice. All these factors work together in line with the structure, um, of like building a bridge ultimately from a place of challenge to a place of desire or next level u. And kind of. Validating the promises that you're making. Like this is, this is the promise that I'm making. That's the other mistake that I see as well. People don't actually make a promise. They don't actually say, this is what you will get from this program, this service, whatever, because they're scared of hanging their hat on a result, and that directness, that certainty, that no space for doubt is what sets apart good sales pages from not so good ones. Teresa: Right, Can you just repeat all that again because I just normally I have my, my remarkable and I take notes, right? And I thought, oh, I didn't pick it [00:11:00] up, and you just said so much good stuff in there. I feel like at the end of this podcast, I'm gonna have to go back through and listen to this podcast because. When, when I'm interviewing or when I'm doing an episode with someone, I'm having to actively listen in a very different way as just taking it in so that I know where it's going next, or I know the conversation that we're having or what I wanna pull from that one thing rather than actually just going, oh my God, that is so smart. Okay, so. Uh, I've got like a million questions now buzzing around my head. Vicki: Okay. I love questions. Teresa: Let's talk about, oh, what should I talk about first? Hang on. I need to write this thing down because I'm gonna forget you said about sales page or emails. I wanna come back to that. Okay. But I'll forget. So twisting the knife. Okay. In my head that feels like, oh, that's mean. Right. And I think let's like just talk generally about sales as well. People are like. This is, this is horrible. Sales is horrible, right? [00:12:00] Talk to me, and I'm playing devil's advocate because actually I get the whole twisting the knife thing, and I think we have to do it more than ever now because people are getting far more. I, I think looking at all the launches I'm involved with, all the launches I watch, they're not as successful as they have been, and I think we're having to go an extra mile. So what do we talk about? Give me a practical example of. If you can think of one off the top of your head, what writing would look like for a particular product or service, and then how twisting the knife would be. Vicki: Okay. So yeah, so with twisting the knife, I, I view sales a service, so I'll just, I'll just step back a little bit first, but I view sales a service. Yeah. If I know that my product, my service, whatever it's, I'm writing about, or my client's, um, product or service can help someone, it's my duty to make the best possible case. And how I usually do that is, I call it twist the knife. It's a little bit tongue in cheek, but it's, it's basically, it's basically. Pointing to the problem. I'll try and think of an [00:13:00] example as I go along, but pointing to that problem and turning it in their mind from a, something that they need to fix, but actually it's not that urgent to a non-negotiable and something that they actually need to prioritize. It needs to be something that they deal with now to avoid the consequences of, of not doing it. I'm struggling to think of an example, but I'll come back to that. Okay. And yeah. Basically what I'm looking to do when I, when I look at this, is before I write anything, I will have had loads of conversations with the, uh, my clients' clients or my clients if I'm writing something for myself, and I will go deep on what their struggles were when they joined, before they joined, I should say, or before they started working with the client. And I will go deep on the kinds of things that at that moment in time they were thinking. They were feeling and they were experiencing as well as the kinds of things that they were doing that was actually sabotaging themself or stopping them from moving forwards. Teresa: So when I'm, okay, so let me just cover that. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. That they were thinking, they were feeling, they were doing, Vicki: doing. Yeah. [00:14:00] And stopping And what would that And stopping them. Stopping them from moving them moving forwards. I'm happy to share my little handout after if it would be helpful for you to refer. Teresa: Perfect. Perfect. That would be, thank you. Cool. Vicki: Amazing. So yeah, so that's, that's what I'm aiming to do with twisting the Knife. However I do that so that they see the opportunity, because with what I'm doing when I'm interviewing those people and then converting that into copy is, I'm making clear that. They see the opportunity because I, I work a lot with expansive clients as well. I don't typically work with people who are stuck like really in lots of pain. Like it's, it's terrible. It's awful. Yeah. I work with people who are looking for the next level. They're looking for that next opportunity, so that more expansive client by just looking at the things that they were doing and the, um, things that they were experiencing. Often you can spot symptoms of a problem that they don't either know exists yet. Or something that is, they're experiencing the symptoms rather than the root cause. And I'm just trying to think